Bullying, Bathing, Runts, and Handling Hens

[Farmer Viola]

Quote: Lightning laid me another egg today! Yippeee!!! I thought these stubborn RIRs would NEVER lay! hehe. I actually saw her in the box she laid in this time, not that I had any doubts before. There was a little blood on her egg again today. Runty also laid an egg, in the big girl nest! Frankie was my 3rd egg today, and there was also a broken egg below their roost. At first, I thought it was a membrane egg.. but inspecting closer, it did have a shell, but it seemed like a very thin shell. I am thinking this was from Penny and that her shell maker is just warming up. They are on layer feed and getting plenty of calcium, I know.

Yesterday we had 5 eggs laid: Cersei, Ethel, Frankie (best layers! ), Lucy (confirmed laying - I suspected, but witnessed it this time for sure), and Lightning's first.

Penny and Squinter have laid 0. (26wks)

Barred Rocky Betty has laid, I'm pretty sure the spotted one is hers, but that was about 4 days ago and none since.


Quote: Gah, really? That's awful. Her butt is drippy poopy again today. Dislike dealing with that.....



Quote:
Hah really?! I didn't know that at all... I just thought she was being a jerk. Seems like all the Reds are in an upset since Runty came back. Not AT Runty exactly, but more among themselves. The 4 reds are below everyone else, and they don't contest it, their biggest disagreements are within their Red clan. It's almost as if the non-Reds see all Reds as the same bird.

Quote: Yes! I'm so impressed! She is running all around, looking strong and healthy. I was concerned she would have trouble learning where to lay in the coop again. Yesterday, I shut her in there for 3 hours (with food and water) around the time she normally lays, checking on her every hour. She wouldn't lay. But, it seems like being shut inside helped her, since today she laid her egg in the big girl nest voluntarily.

 

[Farmer Viola]

The Egg Report
Since her first egg on Monday, Lightning has laid 5 days in a row! Impressive! Her eggs are getting consistently larger and darker in color. I can see dark brown spots under the bloom, which makes them look a little faded/gray.

Frankie has also laid 5 days in a row! I started keeping track on Monday We're averaging about 5 per day! (9 chickens)

Betty Barred laid an egg on Wednesday and today! Hers are small, round, and light colored. The spotted one from before was definitely from a RIR, not her.

On Wednesday, there was also an egg found about 10ft from the coop. It was also small, light color - bigger than Runty's, kinda poopy. Maybe it was Lucy's? Not sure. It looked like she was trying to make it, but couldn't quite get there. I have been letting them out to free range after 12 noon, once I know the new layers are done and the ones who haven't laid "for sure" will go home to lay (have in the past).

Squinter's first egg came today! LOL It is SO small! This is what I expected Runty's first egg to look like! It's just comically small compared to other first eggs. Squinter is also small in size, but not as small as Runty. The egg is medium brown with dark brown spots all over it - a lot of them. It also looks to me like it does not have a bloom? The spots are kind of raised off the egg and aren't faded like Lightning's.

I am assuming it's Squinter's because of the size. I suppose it could also be Penny's. Who knows.

What do you think about the bloom?


Squinter - Frankie - Storebought/farm fresh



first full dozen (runty's tiny eggs are saved separately)

funny how white Frankie's look in this photo. I didn't edit it. her eggs tend to look blue against green, and green against blue.

 

[chooks4life]

Congrats on all the eggs and your first full dozen. Success!

About bloom, I don't know. I haven't read almost anything about it. My healthiest hens do seem to usually produce eggs with bloom so I assume it indicates good things. But that's about all the info I have to offer. :/

Any egg with a less than smooth surface generally indicates a less than perfectly healthy hen, but you already knew that about Runty and Squinter. It's good she's laying though. Means something's working at least.

Best wishes.

 

[Farmer Viola]

So Frankie the beardfaced americana has gone broody. I don't know what to make of it. She's only 7 months old, and the weather is still summery. I was under the impression that it was usually older hens or cold winter months that brought on broodiness.

I did have 2 golf balls in their nests, and initially I noticed she was sitting extra long trying to lay eggs (I thought). It got longer and longer, sometimes sitting on golfballs, other times sitting on other hen's eggs, and always sitting on her own egg after she laid it. I noticed this sunday-monday, 5-6 days ago. She laid an egg on monday and tuesday, but none since (wed/thur/fri[today]). Wednesday she was weird, running in the nest and back out very quickly, over and over all day long. Thursday and today she is straight up broody. Follows another hen inside, I hear the egg song, the layer comes out and Frankie dutifully stays inside to sit on the fresh egg. Doesn't lay her own anymore.

What gives? What should I do? First she wants to be a male, now she wants to be a mother?! LOL!

I have been kicking her off the nest all day today. At first, I thought she was trying to lay an egg, so I didn't want to remove her, but now I can see she will sit in there all day if I let her. EVEN if there is no egg, no golfball. It's chicken bedtime, and she has been sitting inside, and her crop isn't full. I kick her out of the nest, set her in the grass or near the grain. She does eat SOME, but she is not eating like she should be. Or drinking, I'm sure.

Otherwise all is well. Squinter laid that one tiny freak egg 2 weeks ago, nothing since. Penny, a large and healthy looking RIR, still no eggs! 7months! Gahhh!

 

[Farmer Viola]

I noticed last night that Frankie opted not to go on the roost, instead staying in her nest while everyone else roosted. I lifted her up by letting her stand on my hand, placing her on the roost with the others. She's still acting broody today, and I'm still removing her from the nest, returning her to the flock (who is free ranging), tantalizing her with scratch and grass and garlic. She just goes back in to the nest about 20 minutes later.

I may have to try the broody buster method posted here: (link) but I will need to find a cage for that specific purpose, I think. I do have a pet taxi I could put her in, but it's walls are mostly solid and it seems that it would just replicate a nest anyway.
Edit: I read that some hens go broody with the cycles of the moon, and Wednesday (the day she went full broody imho) was a full moon!

If I WANTED her to go broody, say when I add chicks in the winter, how many eggs could she potentially set? 6-10? Would chicks outside under the care of a mother survive if it were winter time? It's cold and wet here, but usually little to no snow (not that severe a winter). I have been planning to raise chicks this winter indoors, in a brooder. But if I had a broody girl.. hmmmm..... maybe I could bring her indoors and she could set them inside....

Edit #2: Ok so 4 hens were trying to lay, and Frankie was being a big jerk to them invading the nests. So I removed her, brought her inside, dunked her butt in some cold water, and now she's staying inside with me. I put a diaper on her and she's sitting on the ground unmoving in protest. I want the others to lay their eggs undisturbed before I return her. I also noticed she has pulled some of her belly feathers out.


I have noticed that Betty Barred has been sneezing frequently in the last couple of days. She also has the runny butt that Lightning and Penny had (but no longer have! YAY!). I've given her the garlic douche treatment, I've also splashed dirt on it when it seemed more wet than poopy. I've administered herb tonics for diarrhea/digestion (rosemary, thyme) via dropper to Betty's beak. I also put some of this herb mixture into their main water source (when it was clear of OACV) to no improvement. Also gave everyone plain unsweet yogurt for probiotics 2 days in a row (maybe more would be better?). I read some differing opinions on giving chickens dairy, but it didn't have any ill effects on my brood.

I have to admit something else.. up until about 1 week ago, they had cedar bedding. This huge bag was purchased by my SO when we built the coop, he did the research and I never looked into it. Come to find out, cedar is especially toxic to chickens?! I am now concerned that it might be causing the sneezing and diarrhea in Betty, and wondering if previous ailments could have been attributed to the cedar. When I read that, I immediately bought pine shavings and changed out everything. The pine is much less fragrant. Feels bad man..

 

[Farmer Viola]

I found a good deal on a couple of used wire cages (I cleaned them), and she is now in broody chicken prison:

none too happy, lol


The lady I got the cages from also told me about her relative, a backyard breeder with mixed breed roos that I might be able to get fertile eggs from(!!!!) The timing is too funny -- to brood, or not to brood?

I'm going to break her of it this time, but if this becomes a trend, I might just go back to get a handful of fertile eggs for her to set. It's not the original route I had planned, but it just might work!

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: Broodiness in a naturally inclined hen will occur whenever her body tells her it is done with the clutch-laying for this period. I think that info pertains more to non broody breeds going broody later in life, perhaps.

Winter shouldn't bring it on, since it only takes up to 21 days or so to hatch a clutch, and spring and summer chicks are more likely to survive, with those months being the more natural time to hatch a clutch.

I haven't heard of chickens going broody with the moon cycles, but if interrupted from brooding some certainly will simply repeat and repeat it until successful. Some of my best foster mothers could raise endless clutches nonstop year in, year out if allowed. I call them 'plague chickens', lol. When there is enough food around they'll abandon their chicks at as young as two or three weeks, or their chicks will abandon them, and they'll get right back to brooding, so you can have one clutch per month hatched, partially reared and abandoned, with the mother brooding again, within a month sometimes. Generally it takes longer though.

Often being injured, ill, or very distressed at a young age will bring on broodiness too. Most hens reliably set after a traumatic incident in my experience, even if they'd gone their entire lives without showing the slightest ability to be a mother before that. If Frankie had or has anything wrong with her I would expect her to set early.

Quote: I've never lived in a snowy area so I have no idea how well they'd do, but basically if your adult hens survive despite the snow or cold, then their chicks most likely would too, because they brood them whenever cold. If they're good enough mothers, that is. A hen who lacks the instinct to sit down and let them snuggle when they need to can kill them through that.

Even through winter my hens kept rearing chicks, who would visit their mothers like recharging stations to warm up in between foraging. It wouldn't be too advisable to rear them in winter if you get snowy temperatures though because they'd take longer to grow... Unless you want to develop a really cold-hardy strain. Any chicks you hatch in winter will grow slower than any you hatch in spring and summer though, generally.

As for how many eggs, just keep popping them under her or watch to see how many she can cover correctly. This is where it helps to have her trust you, because eggs may be pushing out from under her tail as she tucks eggs under her chest, and if she doesn't trust you, it's harder to check. If they're all covered and invisible, that's how many she can cover. Some hens stack them two layers deep though so it's also good to keep an eye on whether or not she's doing that. Six to 12 is an approximate number, based primarily on her size and the size of the eggs.

Also some hens tuck them either side of the breastbone only (which is normal) whereas other hens, often banties, can operate a rotary sort of brooding style where they'll hug some under their wings alongside those either side of their breastbone, with some in the middle of those, some tucked around their thighs, etc... They'll make sure each egg gets its fair share of heat and these hens can hatch disproportionately large clutches. I've had some larger hens not reliably manage more than four to six eggs.

I doubt she's been pulling her feathers out, they naturally lose breast and belly feathers when brooding. Otherwise the eggs wouldn't get warm enough. Even wild birds develop broody patches, which they can hide under longer side feathers when not on the nest. Male birds can also develop broody patches. If you've actually seen her pulling them out then that's another issue. If she preens her breast and belly during broodiness they will fall out with a slight touch, and even without it they drop out due to hormonal changes.

Quote: Only some chickens are sensitive to it as far as I know. I used to give mine cow's or goat's milk (raw, never heated beyond the animal's body heat) and they were fine. Diarrhea is good to flush out toxins and pathogens, but if it keeps going raw apple can stop it. I'd just let them peck at it whole of smash it if they were lazy.

Your chickens are no doubt finding a lot of wild bird's diseases and other environmental pathogens to get used to, so until they're more immune I would expect somewhat frequent illnesses.

I don't know anything about cedar shavings, good or bad, offhand. I've used pine shavings once but didn't find them too useful and they also come with risks. Some chickens ate them. They were fine and learned quickly that they weren't food but other people's chickens have died from doing the same. If you can get sand for their coops, that's possibly the best alternative to dirt (which can be harder to maintain if you have a high population).

My chooks used to love yogurt (so did I) until our favorite brand changed the strain of probiotics they used. After that it never tasted the same, never went down the same, and me and the chooks have really gone off yogurt in general. If one brand, breed, strain, etc doesn't work, it's good to try another. Coastal rosemary is the one to get if you can, too, there's way too many ornamentals getting around the culinary market. Vitamin C in a high enough dose will treat almost anything, and causes a reaction like hydrogen peroxide in the cells, infusing them with oxygen, which is the nemesis of many diseases and issues. Some lemon juice or other source of vit C might fix the issue with Betty if it's not cedar shavings causing it.
Quote: If you break her this time and she re-sets within this year, it might be best to test her out. Some hens are so repetitive and frequent when it comes to setting that they run their health downhill and make a nuisance of themselves to you and the other hens. Best wishes with your flock.

 

[Farmer Viola]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for so much information!!!

I have been researching chick rearing non-stop the last couple of days. The chick raising workshop is later this week, too. They're going to try to sell chicks I'm sure, but I just want the information (and to win the free coop.. omg.) With your plague chickens laying nearly non-stop, is it hard on their bodies? The main thing that began to worry me with Frankie is that she was literally not eating, and going to bed with an empty crop. I really didn't want to come out to find a dead chicken in the nest.


Quote: I don't believe anything traumatic has happened to Frankie recently, but I'm not ruling out any illness/disease in any of my hens that may yet be undetected. For the most part, they appear phyiscally healthy, but there are little signs I don't like, such as sneezing (and runny poo). Initially I thought it was just Betty, but other chickens have sneezed too - outside the run, while free-ranging. I'm not sure if they are normal sneezes or cause for concern yet.


Quote: so interesting, okay....I also read that some people will bring their broody indoors to be monitored and secluded from the main nests. Then, I suppose the temperature would be less of a concern. We have relatively mild winters for being as far north as we are, we're close to the ocean so that keeps warm air rolling in and preventing huge snowstorms. We have had 1 snowy winter out of the last 6. So it can happen here, but it's rare. Mostly, we have very wet (rainy) winters hovering just above freezing (40-50 degrees fahrenheit or 5-10C?). Anyhow, I might keep them inside when they're very small until they can safely make it outside.

Quote: Ah, okay. I haven't actually seen her do it, I was just startled to see her bare belly. I have been noticing other small changes in her, particularly the sound she makes has changed within the last week. I'm assuming also related to her hormones. Before, it was kind of a gravely/hoarse cluck, it didn't sound quite right. And now it's becoming more "normal" cluck-clucking. She was also trying to mount other chickens about 2 weeks back (that stopped).


Quote: I didn't think of it that way, thank you

Quote: The pine I got is very hm...dried out? Not aromatic. The cedar was just very potent. I feel so bad for having used it for so long. Some people recommend against pine and say to use hay. I'm worried that hay will introduce too much moisture and create mold and mildew, which is very very easy to do in our climate. Their nests are pine, and there is a very light layer of pine under their roost so I can clean it more easily.

The run itself is a dirt floor, it was built over old garden beds so veggies and weeds sprout up. I use coco fibre as my "deep litter" in the run, adding a new 4inch layer of fibre to the run every month. It's very absorbent, good for the rain. I leave an area of the run just dirt though, so they can take dirt baths. Some of the wood chips enevitably fall out of the coop into the run floor. I think sand is really cool, I'd love to have a framed-in sandbox below their roost for easy cleaning!


Quote: I might try another kind next time, the one I bought this time was greek and I'm not a fan of that texture.


Quote: She's still pooping liquid today, in fact I just took this photo of a liquid poo she launched with an audible splat down the stairs:


I don't have lemon, but I do have oranges.. that should work right?

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: No, because these were bantam mix hens who would lay clutches of around 12 eggs and immediately brood them. They were such efficient mothers their chicks 'graduated' into independence really quickly, and they'd be right back at it again. They'd start laying before the chicks even left their mother's nesting place. So they'd always be working on another clutch if I didn't stop them.

It's not a great sign that she's not tending to herself well. She might make a sub par mother. Maybe she's just a bit young still. She might be ok.

I don't know if she's become broody due to any underlying issue, but often a pullet who doesn't look as prime as the others is the first to go broody. I think it's a survival mechanism genetically speaking; she doesn't look prime because something's a bit off, so her body tries to reproduce quicker because it triggers a desperation of sorts. Healthier ones often take their sweet time.

Your coop sounds pretty nice. It's always good to experiment and find what works for you. Some people never have problems with things other people recommend against, and everyone's circumstance is unique.

Oranges should be fine for the chooks. Anything that bumps up their vit C should help a lot of things. With that sort of poop, as far as I know it is a transient illness that only some seem to catch. It's never been fatal or serious in mine but we are in different countries so it could be something else. So of course, best to amp up her anti-disease dietary aids/defenses to help her overcome it. I think it's in the soil, or spread via wild birds, because I see wild birds get it too. Since it's never been serious with mine I think it may be a bit like chicken pox for humans (if you get the pox, you don't get 'x' different types of cancer) for example. As in it quite possibly immunizes against other more serious things. That's if it's like what some of mine got.

Best wishes.

 

[Farmer Viola]

They absolutely loved the orange! I sliced it in half and they went nuts. I let Frankie eat a little bit of it too. I feel so bad for her in prison.

Yesterday I was noticing Ethel seemed kind of lethargic. She was falling asleep standing up and her tail was pointing down, and her comb/wattle was pinkish, not it's usual red. She seemed alright the rest of the day, I kept monitoring her, and left her alone. This morning my husband said she wouldn't wake up when he went down to the coop. She was awake and alert when I checked on them, but tail down, comb kinda pink. I brought her inside and gave her some honey water and coll silver mixed. She stands with her tail down, sometimes her neck looks roached feathers, sometimes it's normal. She's content to just sit here in my lap making small sounds, not energetic enough to try and get away.

She seems to not feel well, although I have no idea what's wrong with her. Her feet and face are very warm. She sometimes breathes with her beak open, it doesn't seem to be as fast as "panting" but maybe it is panting. I listened to her lungs and they sound like they are easily drawing air clear of any debris or lung congestion (I think). Sitting on my lap indoors (72F) shouldn't be too warm. I don't see any mucus on her eyes or nostrils.

I might do a 1 day laxative diet -- not sure if a 1 day fast would be safe since I don't know what it is.

edit -
Uploading a video of the strange way she is breathing. Sometimes mouth open, but not always:

She is inside the ICU box indoors with a blanket and water. She is content to stay in there, not making any attempt at escape, lethargic, sometimes falling asleep. I gave a herbal brew of sage and nettle and some kelp for good measure, and have done the honeywater/coll silver a few times too. No food today yet. She has had a couple very small, normal looking poops, and then a runny one (probably from all the water I'm giving).

She hasn't laid today, so I felt around wondering if she could be egg bound...but I couldn't feel anything. I believe it's closer to the spine, not the belly? I'm hesitant to press too hard, but maybe you have to press hard to feel an egg? If it were egg bound, wouldn't it be closer/unable to pass? Anyway, she's been having small poops, and usually they don't poop when laying.

Looking in her throat, no lesions or redness, looked for gape worms.

When it rains it pours I guess. 3 chickens, 3 problems: broody / diarrhea / panting/lethargy