Buying meat birds...

[chickenannie]

this is very interesting stuff to think about. Everyone's comments are insightful and valuable.

I also wanted to add that I worked at a farm for several years where 2,000 pastured CornishX were raised and butchered each season, so although my 22 birds I mentioned above were MY first, I was very aware of how to raise them, what they were like etc. However, this fall was the first time for me that I spent a lot of time with them in close quarters, feeding, bedding, handling etc. and that was the first that I felt I could make my personal observations about them.

But my point is this:
I understand that from a financial/efficiency standard, that CornishX work best for the industry and for many farmers at this time.

However, can we question that paradigm? If CornishX were bred to be this way, but now we see that we've got some obese birds whose legs and organs give out, isn't it right to be able to think critically about it?

I have a hard time accepting the idea that CornishX are the "best way to go" just because over the last 50 years, they've been bred that way.

In the name of survival and evolution, why would we want to have 99% of our nation's chicken meat grown on a bird that can hardly survive past 10 weeks?

I would make the argument that diversity is always good, and that we need to have a broad variety of meat birds. What if a flu bug comes around that only affects CornishX? Well, then suddenly our entire meatbird industry is wiped out. You can make comparisons with the Chestnut trees on the East Coast being wiped out, or the Elm tree disease.

Being so dependent on one breed of animal simply cannot be good for the long term.

 

[PurpleChicken]

Quote:
Amazing! I never even thought about it that way.

Cornish would die out, Rangers would not be in reach, and
we would all be raising Rhode Island Reds as a dual purpose
bird.

I think I hear my RIR's yelling from the barn... (RIR RIR RIR)

 

[dancingbear]

Quote:

I too, am a firm believer in preserving biodiversity, both in animals and plant species. Sustainability is a big issue for me. I've heard all the argumants that you shouldn't even bother to try sustainable flocks, unless you can maintain 2 or 3 or 4 totally separate flocks, etc., and I respectfully disagree with that point of view.

Even if you can't manage to totally produce all your own feed, and can't keep a large number of separate flocks, you can keep healthy, normal, breedable chickens. Then in the event that we lose the main meat breed, guess what, there's a bunch of us bone-headed stubborn green types out there, with some healthy, breedable birds. Chicken dinners could still exist, rather than becoming a fond memory of the past, when we used to have chickens. Same goes for flocks and herds of heritage breed animals of any type.

Keep some non-battery laying hens that will still brood their own eggs, you're good to go, even without an incubator.

It's possible that the day may come when you won't be able to order all the chicks you want from a hatchery. We could all be eating RIR's or whatever we happen to have.

Of course, there are other alternatives. Squirrel, the other white meat!

 

[willheveland]

Quote:
How long of a lifespan should a chicken being raised for consumption live?

Are we talking meatbirds or family pets?

The years and years of focused breeding was to develop a breed that produced a large amount of meat fast,it wasn't to develop a breed with longevity.I think the idea was to use them as a renewable resource.If you were raising tomato's for the consumption industry would you want one that took 45 days from seed to fridge or one that took .5x or 2x longer and could hang on the vine for 3 months longer without rotting?

Who said we should depend on one breed of chicken?

Could you imagine depending on RIR's to provide the Globe with chicken meat.The RIR was developed long before the Cornish-X, If a meatbird was in their future they would have used them.

If a flu comes that wipes out the cornish-x only,then I will be forced to choose a new breed,then maybe freedom rangers will be on "my page".

I've eaten both chicken and squirrel,I prefer chicken.Otherwise I'd be on the Backyard Squirrel site.

Will

 

[Brunty_Farms]

A disease that would wipe out only the cornish x is a little far fetched. Trees aren't a good comparison as they are apples and oranges to each other. I see what you mean and I say the what if... but I can't envison a disease so widespread to take out just the cornish x. Our government would suspend all movement of poultry and would exterminant millions of chickens including our flocks to try to contain the disease. It would be a sad day in the poultry world.

It was a good point with the tomatoes. You want any vegatable to grow as fast as possible so you can see results. What is the difference with the poultry? Why would you want them to live past 6 weeks? Mine are here and gone within a month and a half, I wouldn't want them here any longer. This is what they were bred to do. Thanks to modern day science, we can have the oppurtunity to raise these birds.

I'm all about diversity too, but there is a fine line between diversity and production for me anyways.

 

[dancingbear]

I'm always happy to see anybody raise their own food, of any kind, whether animal or vegetable, and if it's a sustainable type of animal or plant, so much the better.

To those who prefer Cornish X, go for it, enjoy, you're raising your own meat, good for you.

To those who prefer a different breed, ranger or whatever, go for it, enjoy, you're raising your own meat, good for you.

Now, having said that, ponder these ideas. This is not a condemnation of anything or anybody, just some points to think about.

Disease was just one "what-if". With Cornish-X being as fragile as they are, it's not all that far fetched to me, that something, relatively harmless to hardier birds, could kill them. They do, after all, often drop dead for no discernible reason. Why is the idea an illness killing them, and not all the other breeds, so hard to believe?

But there are other possibilities. What if, for some reason, shipping of live chicks and eggs were stopped? Where would you get your Cornish X's? Or Rangers, for that matter. You can't keep back a few Cornish X to breed. You could with Rangers, though they won't breed true. They'd still be food, and a some of the offspring would turn out like the parents.

How about a large-scale natural catastrophe of some sort? You want your meat supply to be from animals that drop dead easily even under good conditions? And will be gone after the current batch is used up, because you can't keep some back to breed more?

I could go on with various scenarios, but I think that's enough. The point is, we don't know what may happen in the future. Having so many people dependent on one breed or variety of anything can very quickly become a huge problem, in the event that something goes wrong. And sometimes, things go wrong.

And, nobody is saying not to raise them at all. We're just saying that bad things have happened in the past, where a species was wiped out, or seriously compromised. Mono-cultures are just not the best idea for long-term sustainability, whether you're talking about animals or plants.

There's no reason for all home-use-only meat raisers to always follow the large scale commercial model. For some, it's a real PITA to even try to do replicate that model.

It's not "a lot more work" to raise rangers at home instead of Cornish X at home. Most of us also keep some layers, we tend them daily, anyway. We'd just tend a batch of rangers, or other meat birds while we're at it. Even though commercial operations kill the Cornish X's at 42 days, many home raisers keep them until 8 weeks old. So you're talking about an extra 1 or 2 weeks raising rangers rather than Cornish, for the home producer. Not a big difference to most folks. And rangers are easier to raise, because they aren't as fragile, and they can range, so less cleaning up after them. Even if you keep them penned, they're easier to clean up after, the poop's not as wet and gross.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Those are opinions and nothing more.

What is fragile with the cornish x? Their legs? Their hearts? If you raise them to the 42 days they were intended all of your assumptions quickly go down the drain. If fed properly and raised properly most loses are over 6 weeks.

Think of this... dumb comparison but it's a start. A strawberry is ripe for how many days before it goes bad? You can't keep it on the vine once it's ripe. It will die.

Now a broiler is ripe at 42 days. Once you keep it past 42 days it loses it's value and will soon wilt and die for no reason. Your making assumptions for an animal that has one sole purpose... to be ripe at 42 day....period. To raise it beyond what it was intended to do is suicide. If you want to take the risk then great go ahead. But If you take the risk and fall on your face.... and want to blame the breed for being "weak" or "fragile... that is plain Ingnorant. As far as the manure... the pack on a lot of meat in 6 weeks... this is something to be expected from this breed. Again with proper management and care this isn't a problem.

Yes people want to raise them past 8 weeks, but you also must know the risk and not get upset if you lose some. They are bred for a 42 day lifespan, to squeeze anything else out of these chickens is bad news. It can be done and it has been done, but that's not what they were intended to do.

Very rarely will I see a chick or full grown cornish keel over for "no" reason. If you raise them past 42 days and they keel over.... you have your reason... it's simple...

Again for one breed of chickens to come down with a disease it's extremely far fetched. The immune system of a cornish is as strong if not stronger than any other chickens. To endure the housing they endure they have to have extremely strong immune systems. It's like saying white people will soon by wiped out by a disease only effecting one race. I guess you can always say "what if"

As for the rangers there are a lot of people that would prefer not to raise them an aditional 4-6 weeks compared to the cornish. They are a lot of work for someone that only wants to raise a few layers. So they get 25 meatbirds to raise for meat.... not many people want an extra 25 birds hanging around the house... the sooner they are in the freezer the better. That's the mindset of thousands of people.... just ask the backyard hatcheries that sell broilers. Millions apon millions of broiler chicks are sold to people that need or want a broiler that is butchered in 6-8 weeks. They don't want the extra work of having extra birds to take care of.

 

[PurpleChicken]

This thread is getting heated for no reason. Let's respect each others'
opinions so it doesn't get locked. There is so much good information on
it.


Where does the 42 day period for Cornish come from. It's an interesting
concept of a Cornish being "ripe" at 42 days. Is that the point they come
to that thier feed to meat ratio changes? How big should an average
Cornish be at 42?


We went for a year and a half getting all our chicken meat from extra
standard roos. Sometimes we would run out but there was always
a roo coming of age(12 to 16 weeks). If something happened where
both Cornish and Rangers weren't available I could easily feed my family
on my standards or crosses. My Orpingtons are bigger than any meat
bird out there.

 

[dancingbear]

Quote:
Food catastrophes have occurred in the past, and will very likely occur again at some time. That is not "opinion and nothing more".

You can't keep Cornish X to breed. That is not "opinion and nothing more". I won't say it's impossible, but certainly not easy.

You can't keep a sustainable flock of Cornish X's, you have to continually buy chicks every time you want to raise some.
That is not "opinion and nothing more".

"What is fragile with the cornish x? Their legs? Their hearts?"
Yes, for starters. Isn't that enough?

Strawberry plants can be propagated. The plant doesn't die in 42 days, or whatever time it takes the berry to ripen. The plant goes dormant at the end of the growing season, and wakes up and makes more strawberries the following year. If a plant produced one berry and died, it would be pretty useless. If a tomato plant produced one tomato and died, no matter how quickly, that would be pretty absurd, too. Yes, when fruit ripens, it generally needs to be picked and eaten or processed. That's the culmination of the plant reaching the plant version of sexual maturity, when flowers develop and are pollinated, then the fruit, containing seed capable of producing offspring, ripens. That is not "opinion and nothing more".

Animals are usually able to live at least long enough to reach sexual maturity and reproduce, like a tomato or a strawberry. The Cornish X start to die before they finish growing up. Except in rare cases where people have taken pains to keep them alive, Cornish X never reach sexual maturity and reproduce. That's not the natural order of things. That, also, is not "opinion and nothing more".

I know they are bred to be a quick meat crop. A bred-in-on-purpose weakness is still a weakness. I'm amazed at your insistence that these are perfectly healthy birds, that begin to die off after 42 days, because they're "supposed to".
I understand that they were bred this way. I still think it's a bad idea, even though lots of people worked hard to do it. That actually is an opinion, BTW.

You prefer Cornish X. Good for you. Enjoy them.
You appear to believe that it's impossible that anything could ever happen to disrupt the steady supply of chicks. I certainly hope nothing ever does, because that would mean a lot more serious problems than just not being able to get hatchery chicks.

I will raise whatever I prefer instead, and work with sustainability and biodiversity in mind, because I believe it is vitally important. If you don't value those things, that's your business.

I would prefer that you refrain from calling me ignorant simply because you disagree with me.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Your missing my point.... but thats ok...

Just to let you know don't take my opinions the wrong way... mine are just opinons too.. and nothing more. We just see differently I guess?

The cornish x were bred to reach a maximum weight at 42 days with the least amount of feed. After that their FCR is out of balance from a profit standpoint. They soon have their problems they are known for.

Cornish x's are virtully unkillable up to 42 days. They are freaks of nature for their breed. After 42 days they become everything but economical. They have heart attacks, leg problem, and become lazy.

I'm talking about the actual fruit. Not the plant. Technically if that's how you see it.... then the "plant" aka the "parent stock" produce these chicks over and over and over again. I'm not sure I understand where your coming from?