Can Goats eat Horse Feed?

[arabianequine]

Quote:
Ugh..

What I'm saying is that I think there must be some kind of confusion about what's actually printed on the bag of "All Stock" you're referring to.....or are you really telling us that you have a bag that's labeled "ALL STOCK" which also states on the tag that it contains copper, yet does NOT also have a warning not to feed it to sheep?

If so, someone seriously needs to notify the manufacturer and/or the USDA before someone kills their sheep with it.

Seriously.

I do care for my animals and they like treats so they get them.

Caring for something and giving it treats aren't he same thing. I care about my animals, too...so much so that I research what's safe and what isn't.

What I generally recommend to people as treats for goats are alfalfa pellets. If they're not something your goats get a lot, they'll go nuts and attack you for them. As an owner, you really shouldn't be any less satisfied with the reaction simply because it's not "naughty" or that you're tricking them into eating something healthy and appropriate as a "treat" -- you should be proud of yourself for doing right by your animals..

That's what I would think, anyway..

I've had people come back and tell me that they're super happy to have been told about using alfalfa pellets as treats, because they feel like it's something "special" they can do for their goats without having to worry or feel bad about it.

I eat and you I am sure all kinds of things that are not good for us and cause ill effects over time but we don't die from it instantly.

I believe if it is ok for me to eat it my kids and pets can too pretty much with in reason you know. Like I don't eat raw meat so my animals don't get raw meat nor do I give my horse or cow nor do my goats or chickens get meat but you have to have some kind of common sense and judgment. I honestly don't think giving something like I mentioned is a big deal. Moldy hay I don't give to any of my animals not cows or chickens and I know people do.

First of all, cows don't immediately die of mad cow either. Takes years for that kind of thing to show up.
Second, just because something's OK for an omnivorous human doesn't mean it's OK for a herbivorous ruminant.
Third, just because you don't think feeding mammal-derived protein back to ruminants is a big deal doesn't mean that's actually true.

Look, you can keep giving your "garbage guts" their crackers and ice cream cones....they're your animals, afterall, and aside from it being illegal and against every "best practices" standard I've ever heard of, I don't guess there's anything to stop you.

However...when you come along and recommend such things to others, you should expect that people are going to disagree with you and cite verifiable facts which run to the contrary of your beliefs and opinions.

Typically -- and this is just me -- but typically, when someone comes in and cites verifiable facts that run contrary to my beliefs or opinions, I tend to change my beliefs and opinions.

I'm weird like that, though.

The op's question was can she give the goats that feed and it has copper so thats cleared up and imo I think it is ok for treat or just that one bag.

Running one bag of anything through goats is rarely a good idea, because it usually means switching feed twice in a fairly short period of time....from the norm, to the new, back to the norm. If someone said to me "Hey, I'll give you $10 worth of free feed if you'll switch your goat's diets overnight!"...I'd tell them to go pound sand.

No need to get all technically probably not a good idea to feed to goat on a daily bases for its lifespan.

Well, feeding goats is a technical thing.. Or, rather, feeding goats properly is a technical thing.. Maybe you don't believe that, but it is..

I know a lady who was just like you seem to be with her own goats... She'd brag about how they got garden scraps and spoiled produce from the local grocery store and how she "spoiled them" with bags of shelled corn, etc.. Said she'd never had any problems at all.. She didn't vaccinate.. She didn't deworm. She didn't trim hooves.. Just turned her goats out and they were healthy as horses, no problem at all! Couldn't believe how "some people" put so much time and effort into raising them and seem to have so much trouble when it was just so daggone easy for her..

I tried to warn her, but -- just like you're doing now -- she blew me off like I was being "all technically" or whatever.

Next time I spoke to her, she immediately said "You jinxed me!" and went on to tell me how she'd had **four** to die of scours within a matter of days. By the time the whole thing was said and done, she'd lost either six or nine..can't remember. However many it was, it was that many too many..

Needless to say, she got "all technically" and put her goats on hay and goat feed after that, and started listening to me when I advised her on vaccines, deworming, medications, etc..

Not sure why she is asking maybe she just has one bag to get rid?

My understanding was that she had a coupon for a free bag. That was stated within the first few posts..​

Do you agree all breed and all stock are the same kinda feed? They are saying for all animals right all live stock.

Should we start a new post for this topic?​

 

[lasergrl]

well technically all stock can be fed to goats, if you copper bolus. Thats really the best way to get copper into them anyways, if you have a deficient area. Someone said the copper is too high in the horse feed. Reality is all goat feeds are too low.

 

[cmjust0]

Quote:
If it contains copper -- which it should, if it's horse feed -- then the sheep shouldn't have it.

Sheep, like goats, store copper in their livers... My understanding is that sheep just happen to store a lot more of it, to the point that they can easily build up lethal doses of the stuff over time.

Under stress -- shipping, kidding, heavy parasite loads, illness, etc -- the liver can release all that copper at once and BAM....acute copper toxicity, hemolytic crisis, etc. In other words, pretty much a dead sheep.

 

[cmjust0]

Quote:
Nope.. I don't agree at all, actually.

A sheep and a goat aren't different breeds of animals -- they're different species of animals. Different breeds would be Boer, Nubian, Nigerian Dwarf, Saanen, etc., in goats....or Arabian, Quarter Horse, TWH, etc., in horses.

If you've got some kind of feed that's labeled "All Breed", it may very well be for all breeds of a certain species...horses, for instance. Or goats, if there's a picture of a goat on the bag..

But, no..."All Breed" and "All Stock" shouldn't be the same thing.

This is precisely the kind of confusion I was talking about, btw.. It's nothing against you, personally...calling something "All Breed" when there's "All Stock" feed out there is -- in my opinion -- troublesome, and could be very misleading and dangerous.

 

[cmjust0]

Quote:
I disagree with you on the bolus/all-stock idea.. Copper bolusing means giving copper oxide, which has extremely low bioavailability.. Depending on the goat's individual gut pH, they may get quite a bit...or none...or a little of it actually into the bloodstream. Would I copper bolus a goat that was obviously copper deficient? Sure...it would help.

But I wouldn't leave bolusing as the only way my goats get copper, nor would I necessarily say it's the best way to get copper into a goat..

I agree that copper levels in most feed is too low for the way folks use it...but I don't think feed is the best way to get copper into a goat either, since it sets you up to be in a situation where you HAVE to give bagged feed just to keep their vitamins and minerals up. We don't feed every goat the same amount every day -- we feed to condition. If they get fat, they get to scrap it out over a couple of pounds with several other fat goats; if they get too thin or are in a life stage where they need more feed (late gestation, for instance), we split them off at feeding time and feed them up to the condition we want them to have.

If their mineral depended on feed....well, we'd have serious problems.

The best way -- in my opinion -- to get copper into a goat is with a good loose mineral mix that contains sufficient levels of copper. The minerals in a high-quality mineral mix will be highly bioavailable and there will be a target consumption level that's managed through the sweet/salt content. If you manage the mineral appropriately for goats by setting out small quantities at a time and refreshing it often, they'll use it appropriately.

HOWEVER...that's not how most folks do it. Most folks set out a certain amount of feed regardless of the animal's condition while also withholding, neglecting, or mismanaging loose mineral, expecting that what they're getting in feed is good enough. Those folks -- even when they're feeding goat-labeled feed -- will eventually run into mineral deficiencies.

The ones feeding copper-free all stock under those conditions? Doomed....

That's why I never, ever recommend All-Stock for goats.

 

[lasergrl]

Yes but show me a goat mineral with a high enough copper level for most areas. the only one that comes close is onyx right now from cargill. If you have high iron well water, then its like you are breaking even.
You are the first person I have ever heard say that bolusing wasnt the best way to go. Im no expert so I wont disagree, but go say that on a goat forum, yikes, you will have a good debate on your hands.
I feed goat feed, give minerals, and still need to bolus at least twice a year. They constantly get discolored hair, fish tails, and hair missing on the bridge of their noses, as well as heavy parasite load. After bolusing these thing resolve and the deworming actually works. That is for a few months anyways. We have heavy well water too.

 

[arabianequine]

Quote:
Ugh..

What I'm saying is that I think there must be some kind of confusion about what's actually printed on the bag of "All Stock" you're referring to.....or are you really telling us that you have a bag that's labeled "ALL STOCK" which also states on the tag that it contains copper, yet does NOT also have a warning not to feed it to sheep?

If so, someone seriously needs to notify the manufacturer and/or the USDA before someone kills their sheep with it.

Seriously.

That is exactly what I am saying it actually says to feed it to sheep....well this brand is "all breed" from Big R feed store this is where I went yesterday these two stores are in two different cities so next time I go to dells I will look there too I know there is no picture on the dells bag and I also buy "all stock" which is from Dells farm and feed store.

I did get this pic and label yesterday off the "all breed" bag at Big R feed store and you see the cow, horse, goats, and sheep? If you wanna argue the little sheep are not sheep and are baby cows see the feeding instructions for sheep and at the top it specifically addresses sheep again. I don't see feed instructions for goats but those are clearly goats on the bag.

By the way there is copper in the ingredients.

By the way they are the same thing just different manufacturers and stores carrying them.

I do care for my animals and they like treats so they get them.

Caring for something and giving it treats aren't he same thing. I care about my animals, too...so much so that I research what's safe and what isn't.

I do care for them and so much so why should I or anyone believe you when I have manufactures saying different and I am sure it is passed by usda or federal laws.





What I generally recommend to people as treats for goats are alfalfa pellets. If they're not something your goats get a lot, they'll go nuts and attack you for them. As an owner, you really shouldn't be any less satisfied with the reaction simply because it's not "naughty" or that you're tricking them into eating something healthy and appropriate as a "treat" -- you should be proud of yourself for doing right by your animals..


I would give them that too.

I eat and you I am sure all kinds of things that are not good for us and cause ill effects over time but we don't die from it instantly.

I believe if it is ok for me to eat it my kids and pets can too pretty much with in reason you know. Like I don't eat raw meat so my animals don't get raw meat nor do I give my horse or cow nor do my goats or chickens get meat but you have to have some kind of common sense and judgment. I honestly don't think giving something like I mentioned is a big deal. Moldy hay I don't give to any of my animals not cows or chickens and I know people do.

First of all, cows don't immediately die of mad cow either. Takes years for that kind of thing to show up.

I know this.

Second, just because something's OK for an omnivorous human doesn't mean it's OK for a herbivorous ruminant.

You specified it was illegal to give "animals" animal by product.

Third, just because you don't think feeding mammal-derived protein back to ruminants is a big deal doesn't mean that's actually true.

Not breads, crackers, grains no I don't for a treat once in a while. Now like I said before I would not give them meat of any kind.

Look, you can keep giving your "garbage guts" their crackers and ice cream cones....they're your animals, afterall, and aside from it being illegal and against every "best practices" standard I've ever heard of, I don't guess there's anything to stop you.

I am sorry but I don't have any garbage guts I use too though.

However...when you come along and recommend such things to others, you should expect that people are going to disagree with you and cite verifiable facts which run to the contrary of your beliefs and opinions.

And you should too when we get the exact opposite on a bag of "all breed" because me personally I am gonna believe the bag over "you" nothing personal either but I don't know you whatsoever.

Thats like typically you gonna believe the vet over me or you saying something too?

Typically -- and this is just me -- but typically, when someone comes in and cites verifiable facts that run contrary to my beliefs or opinions, I tend to change my beliefs and opinions.

I'm weird like that, though.

So I can just tell you anything and your gonna believe it? Cause it is not working. But you expect me too.

The op's question was can she give the goats that feed and it has copper so thats cleared up and imo I think it is ok for treat or just that one bag.

Running one bag of anything through goats is rarely a good idea, because it usually means switching feed twice in a fairly short period of time....from the norm, to the new, back to the norm. If someone said to me "Hey, I'll give you $10 worth of free feed if you'll switch your goat's diets overnight!"...I'd tell them to go pound sand.

I agree I would not either. I believe feeding them grains and foliage is the right thing to do and won't hurt them. But you have to use common sense I am not gonna feed them a bag of bread a day.

No need to get all technically probably not a good idea to feed to goat on a daily bases for its lifespan.

Well, feeding goats is a technical thing.. Or, rather, feeding goats properly is a technical thing.. Maybe you don't believe that, but it is..

I know a lady who was just like you seem to be with her own goats... She'd brag about how they got garden scraps and spoiled produce from the local grocery store and how she "spoiled them" with bags of shelled corn, etc.. Said she'd never had any problems at all.. She didn't vaccinate.. She didn't deworm. She didn't trim hooves.. Just turned her goats out and they were healthy as horses, no problem at all! Couldn't believe how "some people" put so much time and effort into raising them and seem to have so much trouble when it was just so daggone easy for her..

I tried to warn her, but -- just like you're doing now -- she blew me off like I was being "all technically" or whatever.

Next time I spoke to her, she immediately said "You jinxed me!" and went on to tell me how she'd had **four** to die of scours within a matter of days. By the time the whole thing was said and done, she'd lost either six or nine..can't remember. However many it was, it was that many too many..

Needless to say, she got "all technically" and put her goats on hay and goat feed after that, and started listening to me when I advised her on vaccines, deworming,
medications, etc..

That lady is not like me whatsoever I do worm and trim and give shots to all my animals and making assumptions that I don't take care of my animals because I feed treats to them grains "bread" with animal by product in them is just ridiculous....my main issue is that giving bread, crackers, ice cream cones is not a big deal once in a while as a treat and they love it just like I love ice cream and such even though it is bad for me and will cause ill effects in the long run. I get that but I do it anyways.

Not sure why she is asking maybe she just has one bag to get rid?

My understanding was that she had a coupon for a free bag. That was stated within the first few posts..​

Oh I missed that but still could feed it imo as a treat probably.​

 

[cmjust0]

Quote:
The mineral I use was developed specifically for goats in this area by the goat experts at two local universities. When I need some, I call the local animal nutrition company who has the formula and they custom blend it for me.

The copper level is about 1500ppm, I think, but I'd have to look again. It's like 18:9 Ca, with 50ppm of selenium (selenite + sel-plex).. It's excellent mineral...always fresh, and everything's highly bioavailable.

As for Onyx...it's 2500ppm. Sounds awesome....but what's the target consumption of Onyx? Do your goats actually meet the target consumption? Or do they fall short, or go over?

If the target consumption of Onyx is, say, 1/4oz per head per day...where another, lower-copper mineral is 1/2oz or even 1oz per head per day, then the goats may actually taking in more copper from the lower copper mineral than the higher copper mineral IF they're meeting the target consumption, simply because they eat more of it...

Almost nobody takes that into account.

I'll give you an example.. The last batch of mineral I had was an 'open/early-bred doe on pasture' type formula which contained 750ppm copper...sounds low, right? Well, it was also targetted for a full 1oz/head/day... In nine months, I went through about 150lbs of mineral across, on average, about 10 head. There was some waste, obviously, but the majority of that mineral went IG...in goats!

I did a little math on it and figured that, on average, everybody hit their targets and then a little bit..

The current batch of mineral I have is, like I said, about 1500ppm...but it's formulated for 1/2oz per head per day.. So even though it's "double" the previous batch's copper content, it's actually providing the same amount of copper if everyone's hitting their target consumption rate..

I can tell you that, so far, it's not disappearing as fast as the last batch. What that means to me is NOT that they're not using enough mineral...just that I'm saving money, because it's not double the price of the old mineral.

Moreover, this is all totally irrespective of the role that mineral management plays in the whole scenario.. If I were to have set out 10lbs at a time and expected them to "use what they need," as some folks insist they will, I'd have had lots of waste and mineral deficient goats.. Goats just don't work that way...if it's been out more than about 3 days, my experience says they won't eat it, so you might as well dump it and set out new mineral.

Bottom line...there's a lot that goes into goats and minerals.. It's not all about the PPMs on all the contents, but also about bioavailability differences, target consumptions, the herdfolk's mineral management practices, and so forth.

You are the first person I have ever heard say that bolusing wasnt the best way to go. Im no expert so I wont disagree, but go say that on a goat forum, yikes, you will have a good debate on your hands.
I feed goat feed, give minerals, and still need to bolus at least twice a year. They constantly get discolored hair, fish tails, and hair missing on the bridge of their noses, as well as heavy parasite load. After bolusing these thing resolve and the deworming actually works. That is for a few months anyways. We have heavy well water too.

Copper bolusing is good for barberpole worms. Thing is, I'm not so sure if it's because it's bringing the blood/liver levels of copper up or if it's because there's a low level of copper oxide floating around in the gastric juice all the time, making it an unhospitable environment for barberpole worms. I'm frankly not sure if anyone has done the research to know..

I mean, we all know that low copper and high barberpole loads go hand in hand...and we know that COWP bolus and lower barberpole loads go hand in hand...but who's to say it's not the stress of the barberpoles depleting the copper and not the low copper inviting barberpoles in? And who's to say it's COWP adding copper to the system, rather than COWP killing barberpoles and allowing the body to actually begin storing copper sulfate from feed instead of releasing it from the stress of the barberpoles?

Who knows?

But it does help with worms, somehow or another...that much, I've come to believe through experience.

And so far as being the first person to say copper bolusing isn't the best way to manage copper...well, what can I say? I'm a proponent of bolusing for parasites, and if I had a goat that I KNEW was copper deficient, sure...I'd bolus, if only because a goat that's low on copper is usually also high in parasites. For me, that's reason enough in and of itself..

So It's not as if I'm opposed to it -- I do it occasionally.

But when it comes to using a bolus strictly to manage herd copper levels, I still think that's best done with high-quality mineral that's not only appropriate for the requirements of wherever you are, but is also managed properly and consistently..

I'll say this, too...there's a very, very sharp goat producer on BYH who was adding copper sulfate to her goats' water to combat copper deficiency, as diagnosed by the classic signs...loss of color, split tails, etc.

She later said she had one of the most copper deficient looking does tested and found that her blood levels of copper approaching toxic levels and that another one's copper was spot on perfect...no apparent deficiency. Now, it's true that blood tests aren't as good as liver biopsies for copper...but blood levels probably don't get near toxic or go spot-on perfect if the liver's empty, ya know?

Whatcha gotta understand that mineral overload and mineral deficiency sometimes look the same, and lots of mineral deficiencies have overlapping symptoms.. What may look like a selenium deficiency could be just that...or it could be selenium toxicity...or vitamin e. deficiency...or maybe a high blood sulfate and/or low blood calcium level which is/are acting as selenium antagonists....

See what I'm saying?​

 

[cmjust0]

Quote:

I've never, ever seen a feed product with added copper that recommends being fed to sheep.. Ever. It's a very low level of copper at only 10ppm, but still...I'm shocked. If I had sheep, I wouldn't personally feed this to them.

I do care for them and so much so why should I or anyone believe you when I have manufactures saying different and I am sure it is passed by usda or federal laws.

Find me a federal law or USDA regulation passing ice-cream cones as appropriate treats for goats and I'll hush.

I am sorry but I don't have any garbage guts I did use too though.

Well, I still have some. More than I'd like to have at the moment, actually.

And you should too when you got the exact opposite on a bag of "all breed" because me personally I am gonna believe the bag over "you" nothing personal either but I don't know you whatsoever.

Thats like typically you gonna believe the vet over me or you?

I promise you -- copper kills sheep. I don't care what that bag says.

If you don't believe me, ask a sheep person. Kent feed just had to recall a whole batch of their sheep feed because it contained copper.. Like, maybe a week ago..

Not like me whatsoever I do worm and trim and give shots to all my animals....my main issue is that giving bread, crackers, ice cream cones is not a big deal once in a while as a treat and they love it just like I love ice cream and such even though it is bad for me and will cause ill effects in the long run.

Ok...suit yourself. Stuff in any of those could be on the banned list, but OK. Your mind is made up.

Oh I missed that but still could feed it imo as a treat probably.

Actually...she probably could, yeah. Little bits at a time..

Oh, irony...you kill me sometimes.

 

[lasergrl]

Are you talking palatability here? Because my goats refuse to eat the minerals anyways, maybe a tiny lick once a week or so. I have tried them all. If i mix some in with sweet feed they spit and sneeze and wont finish it. If you know of a way or brand they will ingest im all ears.

Oh, and just for kicks i checked my all stock bag, since i have some for the cows as a treat. it has 8 ppm copper. it does say for sheep.