Can someone define silver pied to me

[Trefoil]

I've got to do more studying on this. Arabs are so much easier.

 

[AugeredIn]

All due respect -- this is a reply to your statement, and not to be taken personally.



No, the statement is not incorrect. When you take a bird which all will agree has a phenotype that fits the "Silver Pied" definition, that phenotype will be the result of three known separate mutations, and possibly one additional "silver dusting" mutation or variation. Being "split" to something means the individual has a heterozygous genotype for the the trait or traits of concern. A bird can be split to Blackshoulder if it has one normal version and one Blackshoulder version of that gene. A bird can be split to Opal if it has one normal version and one Opal version of that gene. A bird can be split to both -- one copy each of Blackshoulder and Opal, and one copy each of the normal version of those genes. But a bird can't have one copy of all the ingredients for "Silver Pied" AND one copy of the normal version of each gene (which is the definition of being "split") because White and Pied are alleles.

If you want to say that this "Silver Pied" version of White Eye, or the unknown separate mutation -- which is an additional necessary (but not sufficient*) ingredient for the complete phenotype -- is the mutation to which a bird is split, then that mutation should be called something else. This is because saying a bird can be "split to Silver Pied" implies that a pair of such birds would thus be capable of producing Silver Pied offspring -- but when used as you argue, that would not be the case. Again, it's an improper usage of genetics terminology that results in additional confusion.

*Other mutation names match their phenotype names when birds are homozygous for those mutations because those mutations are necessary and sufficient for those phenotypes. In other words, take a Midnight peacock. Its plumage color difference from normal India Blue is the result of only one mutation being had in the homozygous condition (i.e. the visual Midnight bird needs to have two copies of the Midnight mutation, and no other mutation is needed -- necessary and sufficient, respectively). That is not the case with Silver Pied as you describe it -- the ingredient is, as you describe it, necessary for the Silver Pied phenotype, but it is not sufficient. To be Silver Pied in phenotype, additional mutations (White and Pied) are needed. Now look at Oatens -- the mutations Cameo and Blackshoulder are both necessary for the phenotype, but neither is sufficient alone. That case is not confusing because we don't call either Cameo or Blackshoulder the "Oaten mutation" even though each is a necessary ingredient responsible for the Oaten phenotype -- Oaten was a new name given to a phenotype resulting from more than one already-named mutation. Giving a necessary but not sufficient ingredient for a phenotpye the same name as the phenotype is confusing.

I don't take it personally. Actually I am going to agree with you. Pied and white are alleles and since you must have pied and white in addition to two copies of the silver pied white eye gene it would really be wrong to say pied split silver pied. Corrected above.

EDIT: Of course we do say split pied for a single pied gene bird and if you add a second pied gene you do not get a pied bird but a dark pied bird. Guess we will have to save that discussion for another day.

 

[Rosa moschata]

It'd probably be easier for everyone if that mystery ingredient that changes Pied White Eye into Silver Pied was simply called "Silver." Then a bird CAN be "split to Silver" and the combined name "Silver Pied" would then make more sense -- Pied plus the Silver version of the White Eyed mutation -- if that's what the mystery ingredient actually is.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Is there Macaw Silver Pied ?
Is there silver Pied mutation with other birds ?

Despite the similarity in the name, I'm going to take a guess at what this Blue & Gold macaw actually is, genetically -- Blue Opaline. It's two separate mutations. The Blue mutation found in quite a few different parrot species eliminates the yellow, and this mutation can be found in B&G macaws -- yellow is deleted, and the birds are blue and white and black. The Opaline mutation is a sort-of Pied, except that instead of simply deleting melanin in some areas, it also seems to replace it with other pigments in the yellow/red spectrum. Some species have other names for their Opaline mutations because they were named before it was understood that they WERE Opaline mutations -- I think Pearl in cockatiels is one, as is Yellow-Sided in Green-Cheek and Black-Capped conures. The Opaline mutation in B&G macaws deletes some melanin (which appears blue to our eyes due to feather structure refraction) and replaces it with psittacofulvins (yellow to red colors). The result is a bird with an extension of yellow through the body, replacing some areas that were normally blue. Combine the two mutations and you get what you see in your picture. In fact, here's a picture of both mutations owned by the same breeder, who likely bred them together to give the bird in your pic.

 

[AugeredIn]

It'd probably be easier for everyone if that mystery ingredient that changes Pied White Eye into Silver Pied was simply called "Silver." Then a bird CAN be "split to Silver" and the combined name "Silver Pied" would then make more sense -- Pied plus the Silver version of the White Eyed mutation -- if that's what the mystery ingredient actually is.

I would agree. The term split silver pied is used by the major breeders and when it is used it is understood what it means, however, it is technically incorrect as you point out so I will leave it at that. Part of what we are after is being correct and I can't argue against that.

 

[zazouse]

It'd probably be easier for everyone if that mystery ingredient that changes Pied White Eye into Silver Pied was simply called "Silver." Then a bird CAN be "split to Silver" and the combined name "Silver Pied" would then make more sense -- Pied plus the Silver version of the White Eyed mutation -- if that's what the mystery ingredient actually is.

Mabe you can answer this question, if i bred an IB silver pied to one of my IB whites will i got 50% white 50% silver pied?
PS some of my white hens are out of a pied,

Glade to see you here, i have missed your post

 

[Rosa moschata]

Mabe you can answer this question, if i bred an IB silver pied to one of my IB whites will i got 50% white 50% silver pied?
PS some of my white hens are out of a pied,

Glade to see you here, i have missed your post

That all depends on what the White is, genetically. Is it a White from Silver Pied X Silver Pied breeding? If so, then it's genetically also White Eyed. You probably can't tell by looking -- you'd have to know what its parents are. If it is, genetically, a White-Eyed White, then yes, half the offspring from a Silver Pied should also be Silver Pied. The other half would be White-Eyed White. If it's just a "regular" White, then half the offspring would be White with one copy of White Eyed, and the other half would be Pied with one copy of White Eyed.

Yes, I've been working in the garden I'm making here. It's only its second year, but things are coming along nicely. Many of the roses I bought last year as tiny bands bloomed for the first time this year, and the perennials I put in this year are filling out. I don't have nearly as much land here as you do, Zazouse, but I'm making my little yard pretty bit by bit. I'll PM you a link to my photobucket album chronicling my progress since I started. It's pretty extensive, and pictures are almost all dated and captioned if you see something you like.

 

[Rosa moschata]

I don't take it personally. Actually I am going to agree with you. Pied and white are alleles and since you must have pied and white in addition to two copies of the silver pied white eye gene it would really be wrong to say pied split silver pied. Corrected above.

EDIT: Of course we do say split pied for a single pied gene bird and if you add a second pied gene you do not get a pied bird but a dark pied bird. Guess we will have to save that discussion for another day.

Perhaps there should be a new name for the Pied mutation. In Muscovy ducks, the corresponding mutation is called Duclair*. Additionally, Duclair and White are NOT alleles in Muscovies. Birds homozygous for Duclair have a symmetrical white pattern, while birds heterozygous for (aka split to) White have haphazard/random white patches. Because Duclair and White are not alleles in Muscovies, one can also have a bird that's homozygous for Duclair and heterozygous for White. All three possibilities (homozygous Duclair, heterozygous White, and both together) will be commonly referred to as "pied" because the birds will have white patches.

Pied as a term in and of itself would perhaps be better left just for phenotype. It's likely that other white-spotting mutations will eventually occur -- for example, there are several separate "pied" mutations in budgerigars, some dominant and some recessive, and not being alleles they can be combined. To differentiate between them, additional words are added, thus there's Danish Recessive Pied, Clearflight Pied, Australian Pied, etc. Saying simply "pied" means that the bird has its color pattern disrupted with areas of depigmentation, with no regard for the particular mutation responsible or its inheritance pattern.

*In Mallard-derived ducks, the term for a similar pattern mutation is Magpie.

 

[Dany12]

Here a picture of pied peacock with some feathers white eyed.



His genetic profil can be :1 gene White + 1 gene Pied + 1 gene White eyes.
In Europe, where the "White Eyes" are not usual, peacock IB Pied have some feathers white eyed .... it could simply be feathers pied ?

 

[zazouse]

That all depends on what the White is, genetically. Is it a White from Silver Pied X Silver Pied breeding? If so, then it's genetically also White Eyed. You probably can't tell by looking -- you'd have to know what its parents are. If it is, genetically, a White-Eyed White, then yes, half the offspring from a Silver Pied should also be Silver Pied. The other half would be White-Eyed White. If it's just a "regular" White, then half the offspring would be White with one copy of White Eyed, and the other half would be Pied with one copy of White Eyed.

Yes, I've been working in the garden I'm making here. It's only its second year, but things are coming along nicely. Many of the roses I bought last year as tiny bands bloomed for the first time this year, and the perennials I put in this year are filling out. I don't have nearly as much land here as you do, Zazouse, but I'm making my little yard pretty bit by bit. I'll PM you a link to my photobucket album chronicling my progress since I started. It's pretty extensive, and pictures are almost all dated and captioned if you see something you like.

I have white hens out of a white eyed hen, whites of IB split white and whites out of a pair of IB whites .. no other colors added to the mix