Cesar millan v. clicker training

[CountryMom]

I would never use clicker training for horse training. I train horses by speaking their language and knowing their language. I don't consider myself a "natural horsemenship trainer" either because I don't "play" with my horses. I teach my horses by speaking their language period. I expect them to understand their job and excell at their abilities. They know what I don't allow and they know what I do simply by acting as a herd leader.

My biggest pet peeve about horses and people is that people put human emotions and thoughts on a horse and expect them to do it the human way. And the reason I end up retraining either said horse or human and a lot of times both. Same goes for children and ponies. I see that in almost all of Ceasar's shows with humans basically allowing and encouraging their dogs to turn out with poor behavior because they are not understood. Again, back to the same thing that drives me nuts..... horses are not human and dogs are not human either.

So with those thoughts I will say that Cesar would make one heck of a horse trainer if he had the time to educate himself in herd talk and ways of training horses. Because he has a great sense of dog language and speaks it to them and reads it very well. He has a gift of understanding that not everyone has with animals.

Do I think he is the only way to train dogs....no, but his methods appear to be better for the dogs minds because they can understand him. I see well balanced confident dogs in his pack because they know they are understood and they understand what is expected of them.

I enjoy watching his show. For those of you that do think he is stupid and an idiot, then all I can say is maybe you should stop treating your animals like humans and start learning their language.

 

[greathorse]

The horse trainer that I believe you are alluding to in terms of "playing with them" drives me a little nuts. He must have some success as his own horses are very well trained but when I watch what he does on his shows I find it tedious and not very beneficial for me.

I dont play with my horses either. I like to think I work with them

 

[Tangle]

Ok, so here is a question for those of you in support of Cesar’s methods, why would a person stress a dog to the point of being bitten

? Why would a person escalate an unwanted behavior to teach a dog the behavior is unwanted? When aggressive behavior is punished, a dog will escalate to a higher level of aggression, which in turn shuts down the sympathetic nervous system and their ability to learn.
Cesar’s dominance theory is based on flawed logic; he suppresses behavior instead of treating the root cause of that behavior. Suppression only stops behavior at that moment and causes an owner to constantly suppress problem behaviors. A dog’s problem behavior cannot be effectively corrected until the root cause is addressed which usually takes longer then a few hours or days. What you see on his show are dogs pushed to the point of shutdown leaving them stressed and unable to learn.

 

[Tala]

I don't put much stock in Cesar, his website was enough to put me off

I get a lot of basic traing from Leerburg http://leerburg.com/ and he does use clicker traing to TEACH the dog. Teach first, don't ever punish him until after he chooses to disobey. Speak the pack leader language. Establish pack structure. Much like NILIF I guess, but more than just going through the motions. I also took a lot from Suzanne Clothier's articles http://flyingdogpress.com/content/category/4/13/97 when I first got my puppy. It's common sense to me. It speaks the language. I "get" dogs pretty well.

But there isn't any one method for every dog. Ya gotta speak the language. I talk differently to my FIL than I do to my Boss, than I do to my mom, than I do to my sister. Know what I mean?? I treat my Chow mix a lot different than my Lab mix.
The Chow is strong willed yes like most are, but also very soft, she knows cuss words so not only do you have to maintain a calm manner you also can't even drop an F bomb under your breath.....

Every little detail means a lot to her, she takes subtle hints and picks up on every mood. She either gets a command/trick almost instantly, or else she doesn't ever "get it" and she'll get frustrated and quit.
The Lab mix, doesn't focus on you much unless you get kinda rough with him. He's a wrestling type dog at play, and being bred to jump into freezing water he's pretty thick skinned. I'm not sayin that we get into knock down drag out fights as "training" and there's no need to yank him around on a leash or anything, but he doesn't live by the subtle hints that the Chow does. "Subtle" to him = a body block at the doorway if he gets ahead of me. He doesn't get frustrated (at least not before I do), and he doesn't give up easily, he just never stops.

I don't communicate very well with small dogs - therefore I don't much like them or keep them. And small dog owners have some of the most annoying "quirks" to me coz most of them manage their dogs by picking them up and putting them wherever they want - rather than training them.

 

[chickerdoodle]

As an animal behaviorist with over twenty years of experience I can only say I do not agree with many of Cesar Milan's approaches. Pure dominance techniques have been debunked by exhaustive research by educated behaviorists several years ago. Some of his methods can actually be dangerous to the handler as it inhibits the dog from warning before biting. He obviously has excellent marketing and I believe he is sincere. He has done some good as he does emphasize exercise and walking your pet daily but I would not recommend using any of his approaches for seemingly aggressive behavior.

I do like Dr. Patricia McConnell and recommend any of her books. A good one to star with is The Other End of the Leash.

I do approve of clicker training--it is actually used quite successfully with chickens!

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
You bring up some interesting points and points of view. I, personally, have pushed a dog into aggression so I can see how deep seated the aggresssion is and so I can see what kind of aggression I am dealing with. I want to see how fast the stress escalates the behavior and I want to see if their is a point where the dog will shut down and what "shut down" looks like for that particular dog.

Again I would like to point out that Cesar does things like he does because he is in the business of rehabing dogs NOT teaching them obedience. You cannot compare apples to oranges, though you can bring them together nicely. Cesar has limited time in which to "diagnose" and give the owners a way of handling their dogs behavior.

I don't subscribe to Cesar's methods per sey (i have done some similar things to dogs like he does). But I do think he has some good ways of looking at dogs, treating some of the issues and then giving the information to the general population that is easy to understand. I like how he packages his information and how he relates to his clients. I think he is extremely talented and charasmatic.

Shutting down a dog like he does thru exhaustion and "blowing the dogs mind" is sometimes very very necessary. The dogs he deals with often are dangerous and have never had any kind of control or learning. The owners are not even close to being equiped to handle their animals escalating problems. I love that Cesar deals with the issue at its core level and doesn't try to make the owners into dog trainers, he helps them, tells them what the issue is and equips the owners to deal with it on a very basic level.

I think the dogs on his show learn a lot. They learn for the first time that their behavior isn't accepted by everyone and they learn that they should look to a person for direction.

 

[CountryMom]

Quote:
Here is a point in case of pushing an animal to bad behavior to get a problem fixed. I have to agree that most owners are not equiped to deal with aggressive or ill behaved animals.

I had a horse come in last year who kept kicking it's owner whenever she didn't want to be messed with or do anything. The owners actually got very afraid of her and would stay their distance away. They had gotten to a point that this horse of theirs was unsafe and not good for their family, but needed her to be. Basically in my book, they had actually made the problem worse. They tried treat feeding her and she was great....got the treat and spun her butt to them and kicked. They put all the human emotions on this horse and read her like they would a child. She isn't a human child.

So they bring her to me to Fix and saddle break. Must be kid gentle and must be family safe. I had 90 days. Upon evaluation she turned her rump to me once, but I quickly handled her in a way that she realized I was leader and she obeyed and behaved. I had not fixed the problem because she still knew she could get away with it with her owners.....as they had conditioned her. She did not know that her kicking behavior was unexceptable. Some trainers would have just ignored it and got her broke and sent her home.......but the problem in her mind was never fixed. Just because the trainer does not have the bad behavior arise does not mean it is fixed.

I went ahead and set her up many times for a kicking situation. When she did I took action and corrected her so that she understood that it was a behavior that she was never to do. I spent a good 20 days working this out of her mind set and yes, many times pushed her beyond her pretty little normal self. When she would shut down as you say is when she gave up her "I am leader" or as one trainer I love to listen to puts it....renegioated her contract with me. I made it a basic understanding that it was unexceptable to do with any human. Her head was dropped low and she was licking and chewing........I would say that is similar to a dog shutting down and being absolutely exhausted. She was exhausted. She was a fighter and didn't want to give it up easily. She was worked until very sweaty and exhausted.

This said little mare has gone on to become the family mount they needed. She had some handling work done with her owners under my supervision before heading home. She then had to work with them by rules which they stuck with and have done well with. And I didn't play with her...or use a clicker...or pet on her and put human emotions on her. I used herd talk and good training to change her mind and correct the ill behavior.

Sometimes in extreme cases it takes a major turning point that comes from hard work and domination. If you put this kind of animal in it's environment with others of it's species, they are not going to say "Oh you poor thing be nice" or let me pull our my clicker or my latest and greatest game to fix this nastiness. Nope, their judgement and punishment are swift and actually many times harsher than human training at it's best can be. And because the animal doesn't have to learn a new language it will respond and understand quicker.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

That was an interesting read, CountryMom

And I agree wholeheartedly. Sometimes you have to push things in order to see what needs to be done. Its not always about taking months and months of baby-step training to change a behavior (though sometimes it is!). I take my training case-by-case. I am experienced enough to have many tools (both physical and mental) with which to work on a particular dog and problem. I never train two dogs the same way. Each is an individual, as are the client's needs and abilities.

 

[chickerdoodle]

Quote:
You are correct that it should always be a case by case treatment as there are different owners, different dogs, different needs and different environments. I want to the client to understand what is going on and offer them choices in the treatment plan and the ramifications of each choice--including some pushing to illicit the behavior.

However, you do not have to use pure dominance to make a "quick fix" as Cesar does--its basically old technique dressed up to look good. He also says he understands a dog's body language but he has been way off the mark on some of his shows. Perhaps he knows that but wants to say differently for good television--if that is so then he would really lose my respect. I rather it be an error on his part than choosing good TV as these are real dogs and families. If it is an error than it shows he is human. He also uses flooding (putting dog in situation it cannot escape from) to shut down a behavior. This can work and is considered a modality but one I am not fond of as it can cause other serious issues in some animals (and people) such as lack of trust and tremendous anxiety. I personally believe a relationship of trust and respect is far more enjoyable than one based on fear and anxiety. Clear instructions and consistency works quickly and lasts longer than good TV.

OK I've ranted but it is my life's work and will continue to be my passion.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
I agree totally that he is way off the mark on many of his shows. I have seen him enough to know he lacks some communication skills as far as explaning specific body language.

Flooding isn't something I have done very often. I have used it in areas such as grooming where the dog won't allow a nail trim or clip. Its the only real way to get this done, the dogs are usually small dogs so conditioned to biting on a grooming table you must do some flooding to get them out of the habit, at least initially. Dominance isn't the only way or even the primary way I train a dog, leadership IS though. I lead and expect them to learn to follow direction. I also know that through a lot of time the dogs I train will learn a differnt way of looking at their owners.