Chantecler Thread!

[Shello]

Tara,

I am just very curious about where the lines originate of the various breeders.

 

[CanuckBock]

Tara,

I am just very curious about where the lines originate of the various breeders.

I don't participate in information surveys like that.

Tara

 

[Shello]

Tara,

It is not a survey, it is a personal question. I would have thought you would be glad to share the information as your website alludes to your stock descending from Dr Wilkinson's - it would add credence to the provenance.

It also helps the breed and other breeders to know what various lines produce ... you have shared your production traits and other very helpful information, but it is even more helpful when placed in context of the genetic similarity or difference of your lines vs others.

Frankly, other breeders have been very generous with sharing the information.

Shel

 

[CanuckBock]

Tara,

It is not a survey, it is a personal question. I would have thought you would be glad to share the information as your website alludes to your stock descending from Dr Wilkinson's - it would add credence to the provenance.

It also helps the breed and other breeders to know what various lines produce ... you have shared your production traits and other very helpful information, but it is even more helpful when placed in context of the genetic similarity or difference of your lines vs others.

Frankly, other breeders have been very generous with sharing the information.

Shel

No means no; especially on the "Internet" regarding PERSONAL questions. I believe that BYC embraces our personal rights to privacy and respectful adherence to that should be a given here.

 

[Shello]

Tara,

I am very sorry that you were offended or felt that the question was of a "personal" nature - it was not meant to be. I do respect your position. I thought that the thread here was to be of benefit to the breed and that is what the sharing done here is about - the Chantecler, not us personally.

I do want to thank you for what information you are willing to share - it is interesting and informative.

Shel

Just a note to other contributors here:

I find it hard put any perspective on what "advice" or personal experience is being given unless one knows that the birds descend from common genetics. Unless people are willing to share that, none of us will know how applicable the findings or experiences are to the majority of the breeders or where we might source genetics with similar traits. This is not a statement just pointed at you, Tara, but something we all should think about as a group. I can see why there are issues with the breed as a whole advancing in quality - especially the Partridge.

 

[GalaBoys]

I don't personally care where the birds descend from. Chicken breeds are determined by phenotype, not genotype. There are no pedigrees, and those who do claim to have pedigreed stock are only working from their own records, not from something like the Canadian Livestock Registry Corporation, so I don't personally put much stock in the "pedigrees" of chickens. That's likely just my opinion, though.

A line changes according to who is in charge of it. If someone (Buyer X, let's call them) sources stock from ABC Breeder, breeds them, and makes their selections based on their own opinions and preferences without the expert assistance and involvement of ABC Breeder, their line is no longer ABC's line, it's now Buyer X's line, from that first year of hatching onwards.

 

[blkjak]

I have to agree with galaboys. Chickens don't have or need pedigrees. We breed based on what we like to see in the birds. Lines change every time you sell eggs, chicks or chickens.

 

[RhodeRunner]

It is important to consider the whole picture. While, a breeder can make advances or seemingly destroy a breed within a few short years, a good foundation is an irreplaceable start.

To say, “A bird does not need a pedigree, and the line changes every time it is sold.” is true only in the most basic of senses.

Let us assume an experiment. That you purchase fifty chicks, twenty-five are from a hatchery, and twenty-five are from a private breeder. You keep both lines in separate pens for breeding, and do not mix bloodlines. Within, a five year period of selective breeding, would you make a difference in the quality of both breeding pens? Absolutely. Would both of your breeding pens offspring have the same appearance and manner of production. Absolutely NOT! Why? The foundation is different. Each bloodline is like a family, with their own genetic code. If you purchase two different bloodlines (even if one isn’t from a hatchery), you will discover different results.

Chicken breeds are determined by phenotype, not genotype??? What determines phenotype? Is it not, genotype that is the true master?

I raise Mohawk Rhode Island Reds, and know every breeder that has worked with the bloodline since 1928. Knowing my birds history, does not make my birds better or less than anyone else’s. It also does not make my birds the same as another person that is raising Mohawks. But, it does make my bird’s and the other person raising Mohawks have the same foundation. It is likely, that our birds mature around the same time, lay a similar color and size of egg, have the same interest or lack thereof in brooding, and even have similar genetics for color and body type, and so on and so forth.

Because of the difference between bloodlines, you will discover many breeders that raise different strains of one breed.

This all being said, every time I go to a breeder to purchase birds I ask where their birds are from. I just recently asked this question of a barred rock breeder, as I wanted to make sure I wasn’t getting the Imperial Ringlet bloodline. (As all the breeders I spoke to with that own the Imperial Ringlet bloodline have fertility issues... another example of how bloodlines are indeed different).

 

[CanuckBock]

Tara,

I am very sorry that you were offended or felt that the question was of a "personal" nature - it was not meant to be. I do respect your position. I thought that the thread here was to be of benefit to the breed and that is what the sharing done here is about - the Chantecler, not us personally.

You do not need to apologize to me as I am not offended in the least. I do however find it quite puzzling that someone would think our farm's reputation or my personal feelings would somehow come into play on a forum regarding the Chanteclers. I have never had any qualms over telling someone "no" when it comes to items like pin numbers, bank accounts, where any of my animals originated from, keys to that safe with all the diamonds I have stashed away (yeh, girl's best friends are those hackle diamonds...sure gonna be mad when they realize they just cracked a safe...fulla parti neck feathers!), etc.

My birds DO NOT "descend from common genetics" so repeating what I have accomplished outside my own strain...good luck with that as you are not going to "source genetics with similar traits" outside the source as in MOI! The Higgins' Dove strain of Chanteclers are just that...ours. I have no need to repeat the process since I own the strain...I will not reveal the process because it is a waste of efforts as the foundation Chantecler lines we brought in, don't exist any more.

Those of you that do not have a strain of your own that you are working upon...you need to deal with what you have available TODAY in regards to the Chantecler breed. You, yourself need to experiment, pay the price yourself (skinned knees, wasted resources, leads going no where fast) and gain your own experiences doing this yourself. All the advice one can give is not going to save you many steps over the hard learned lessons you need to earn...cannot turn the clock back and instruct you on where to go for the foundation lines we started with as those do not exist any more. They are gone and well, like who cares...there are no time travel options available.


In regards to the "nature" of the question you asked, you are the one that stated:

I do want to thank you for what information you are willing to share - it is interesting and informative.

Shel

And thank you for having the decency to recognize that I am willing to share and thanking me for that by saying it is "interesting and informative."

The birds, chickens all do descend from common genetics...the Junglefowl to be exact. There is a set of genetics for wild type and mutations from wild type...some mutations are unique to breeds and varieties and why it is so very important that we safe guard our heritage birds. For one day the commercial factory farms may yet create birds that are one step too far over the line and not be able to come back from that mistake and wipe out a very, very important main staple in our human food sources.

As said, as of this moment in time, you cannot source the genetics I founded my strains on. Those "genetics" no longer exist.

[/B]

​

In order of importance...it is not so much WHAT line of Chanteclers you begin with (past maybe bringing in chronic diseases that cannot be cured), but how astute you are as a breeder and what selections you make from those 100 day-old chooks down to three breeding prospects that suit you and your place.

Some feel that once breeding choices and selections are made, it is no longer ethical to call the flock "So and So's" birds since indeed, they are not the originator's birds any longer. I have seen people take up a line and make improvements by leaps and bounds (subjective opinion in coining these changes as "improvements") and I have seen others take up a line and within one generation, destroy the decades of work by the founding breeder.

Sigrid concurs when she notes that colour patterns like pencilling in the hands of someone only interested in quantity over quality, are easily lost.

Genetics of Chicken Colours, Page 95:

I have personal experience with this colour pattern degradation and will recount our very first adventures in our bantam Silver Pencilled Brahmas (colour pattern variety know as "Dark")...

We first acquired this variety locally from a judge after waiting three years for our turn on them. I simply told Rick, I could do nothing with the lightening bolt zigzags pencillings in the birds we had been sold as "breeding" stock. After an extensive hunt that cost us in time, money, and efforts...we did finally find the original creator of this line and got on his waiting list for some of his stock--lucky for us, this time we ordered them in the fall for next fall's delivery--not as long a wait. The difference in the quality of the birds was vividly striking!

The "zigzag" birds (as I referred to them now) were two owners removed from the birds we have now. The original breeder had invested 60+ years into their birds from ancient stocks, never having added any other "blood" into the strain. The Zigzag birds had been purchased by one judge, sold on to another judge, and then on to us. So only two "owners" had managed to remove the some sixty years of work by the master breeder. We kept none of those 1st birds. The master breeder produced 290 birds that season to send us those three pairs.

Here are these birds as one day olds...compared to four day old hatchery stocks. Keep in mind, this variety is suppose to be based on eb Brown with SILVER and yellow legs...

Dark Brahma Bantam Chicks
LEFT - Hatchery FOUR day old Chick / RIGHT - Higgins ONE day old Chick ​

Dark Brahma Bantam Chicks
LEFT - 4 Hatchery four day old Chicks / RIGHT - 3 Higgins one day old Chicks ​

Realize that hatcheries are mainly interested in producing numbers of birds (healthy ones mind you), but numbers to fill orders for birds. Many also have fine printed warnings that state that the birds sold as day olds ARE NOT show quality but may have parent birds that are. It is still possible to potentially use hatcheries to start up a strain of good decent birds, but you would be well advised to expect to at minimum order up a 100 day old birds to begin selection down to one good trio for breeding forward on; just as many master breeders do. Selection for your objectives is a must.

Dark Brahma Bantam Chicks
LEFT - Higgins ONE day old Chick / RIGHT - Hatchery FOUR day old Chick​

If you perhaps chose hatching eggs (minding of course that nasty items like Chronic Respiratory Disease is transmitted in hatching eggs so you are not avoiding that issue completely!) instead...the numbers you would expect to order would be at minimum from the breeder would be 200 hatching eggs (since invariably, statistically, only half of the shipped eggs will hatch into day olds--others have better hatching success rates but best to be safe than sorry), to hatch out 100 day olds and select down from that to three birds as potentials for breeding from.


Now to counter so we have a well rounded outlook on this, most certainly there ARE traits and characteristics that remain IN flocks from their foundations. A good example would be to visit one of the breeds in this composite breed of chickens we know as Chanteclers...the Wyandotte breed was used in creating the White, Partridge, and Buff Chanteclers.

Wyandottes are suppose to be a clean legged breed, BUT there are sometimes feathered legs that appear to POP outta nowhere...if you go to the APA SOP, 2010, page 45, you will see the reasons for this. As most recent as 1901, Brahmas (feather legged) were used not just in the making of the more recent Partridge variety in the breed but the use of the Brahma goes right back to the original beginnings, though "shrouded in mystery" as to exactly what breeds were actually used. The term "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" may often ring true.

Pedigrees are valid for the breeder's use in tracking success versus the failures in the strains they are creating...and that is exactly MY point. The strain they are responsible for creating! As the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy notes...when we are conserving poultry, it is in the very best interests of the breeds and varieties to have many hands in the cookie jar!

The more people keeping the breeds and varieties, the more healthy diversity will exist to sustain the existence of birds like our Chanteclers.

Standard of Perfection - Albertan 1919:

I can see why there are issues with the breed as a whole advancing in quality - especially the Partridge.

Uh...what? "Issues with the breed as a whole"...."advancing in quality"..."especially the Partridge???"

I think NOT!

Hmm...not sure where you got these stats from Shello...where you have formed or how you formed this opinion but here you go...

We here in Western Canada are ROCKING with the Chanteclers...and indeed the PARTRIDGE variety is holding its own, even over the White and unrecognized Self-Buffs.

Stats I compiled from 2008 to just recently, 2014....at ONE sanctioned SHOW done twice a year in winter and summer here in Canada....with sanctioned JUDGES from both Canada AND the USA...

The Chantecler chicken breed is whomping BUTT...against other breeds and varieties of poultry in exhibition!

Major slam DUNK on the RESERVE in SHOW on a Parti cock!

In fact, I feel our Partridge are often much better than our Reds, Whites and Buffs--truth be known...the Parti Chantecler birds ROCK!

Three years ago...that is three generations hence these publically posted comments (listed below) were made by a sanctioned APA judge in regards to photos of MY birds...no I do not show landfowl so to have a sanctioned judge willing to make public comments about MY birds...pretty darn kewl, eh?


Jan 2012:

I posted more photos as was requested...showing the "close up of the partridge pattern..."

Jan 2012:

This all means I have had three years to work forward on this judges comments...

Have I been a good breeder and addressed this...well sorta...

As far as I see it, some almost THREE years ago, our Chanteclers as a breed were doing jest fine...considering this judge makes NO distinction in particular on the Partridge variety of the Chantecler in particular with other breeds of chickens. The "royalty of the showpen" (as Dr. Carefoot calls the partridge variety) continues to be difficult for ALL breeds...not just the Chantecler breed in particular.

Now if three pencillings is the only fault that continues to elude those of us that CHOOSE to mess with one of THE most difficult colour patterns in chickens, so be it. I can live with myself having never achieved complete perfection. This said, I see more and occurrences of the desired THREE (triple) pencils we strive to acquire in the partridge variety in my flocks. I continue to have hopes this will become something that sanctioned judges DO get to see more often...and in our breed the Chantecler!


On the 22nd, I picked up three parti feathers from some of my Standard Partridges and here they be....

Oh, how I see room for improvement on the pencillings but there are THREE!​

Yeh, the feathers are not in the best of shape...my girls are moulting into their winter clothes right now...but the shaft is dark (not shafted) and there ARE three pencils on these feathers. The least of my focus is on phenotype...three pencils does not EVER rank over production, vigour, longevity, fertility, disease resistance, temperament, etc...but I can also address this issue so that it DOES become a much more common sight in the variety.

In the scope of things...the Chantecler breed in all the varieties one may choose to have the Chantecler in, seems a rather promising prospect...at least for many of us.

I am not the only one here with "good" Chants that qualified third parties have chosen...there are Chanters here posting with Best of Breed and Best of Variety Chants too...they are just too modest to crow like the dickens over this. Maybe we can expect some reporting of upcoming show results on this thread to reveal those who are the shakers and movers as of today!

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada[/B]

 

[Aluckyshot]

Here are the Chanteclers I picked up from Cirrus Hill Farm in Ontario. So far so good, I probably should have gotten 5 more and a roosters while there but live and learn!