Chick Grower? Flock Raiser? All Flock?

[ClareScifi]

Ridgerunner,

My rooster has always been a chow hound and eats a lot more than any of my hens. He seems to be ruled by his stomach. HAHA. Probably because he was hand raised and ate a lot in the solarium, out of boredom, from not being with his flock mates. They tried to peck him to death and it took many reintroductions before they accepted him.

Just now I was outside enjoying my flock and I decided to indulge in a gold-wrapped Ghirardelli caramel-filled milk chocolate and a cup of coffee. I placed them on the railing of the run, and guess who immediately flew up and faced me beak to nose, to see what I was eating?! My roo, yes. It was so cute. He didn't want to miss out on any treats, I guess, and no, I didn't give him any. None of the hens flew up to see what I was eating.

That boy lives to eat! And he likes greens best of all.

I have fed all my chicks the medicated feed. The first bag of it was given to me by the man who gave me my first 2 chicks, and when I hatched my own chicks this fall, I decided to buy it. I'm the type of person who is scared of medicine, for the most part, and don't even take aspirins, if I can avoid it, but when it came to my chicks, I was afraid not to give it for them. I don't handle pet deaths very well. But with the vaccination for Marek's, I didn't know about it in time. If I had known about the value of it, I probably would have vaccinated my Silver-Laced Sebright, but it was too late when I found out. Oh, she is a cutie! Every day she lays her eggs underneath the nesting boxes. I have to reach my hand in to get her tiny egg, and I always wonder whether I will git bitten by a mouse. I guess I should wear a glove. She's a privacy lover, never laying her eggs out in the open like the other hens do. Sometimes I find her eggs tucked in blanket folds or inside the sleeves of jackets. Personality plus, that one. :>)

 

[Zach123]

Ridgerunner, I read all your links and they are very well, and with all of them being from good sources, I guess we can say it looks like I'm wrong. I am still inclined to feel the same way I do about medicated feed however based on what I have seen from both the feed and drug manufactures stating that the drug is to be used with birds where immunity or development of immunity is not desired. I wish I was able to find out more information that they themselves put out, or any detailed description of how drugs like amprolium actually work. But unfortunately almost all the information I can find is a lot of hear-say and second or third hand accounts from both sides of the issue. I have put a lot of time into this since the topic came up and honestly I wont be putting in any more for the time being, lol.

In the end, I believe that people have the choice to do what they feel is in their best interest (or their animal's, as the case may be) and I understand that there are variances in opinion over what that might be. I hope everybody understands that I'm not here to be any kind of formal expert on anything, all I know is from my experience and I will try to pass it on to people who may ask. I do not intend for my aid, point of view, or beliefs to be taken as gospel, and I always encourage people to formulate their own based on their personal expierience and knowledge. Nor do I wish for it to be taken in way as either condescending or beligerant towards people who disagree. If I have in any way come across as such I extend my deepest appoligies. Now, for the sake of hijaking Clarescifi's topic any longer I will only continue this discussion in related threads or through private message.

 

[ClareScifi]

Zach,

I have really appreciated all your input and thoughtfulness. Please don't worry about hijacking my thread. Your comments are a breath of fresh air, very comforting and wise, in my opinion.

I don't really know what to think about the medicated feed, either. I was uncomfortable using it, but afraid not to. I am quite conflicted over it.

I take no one's views as gospel truths, not even the poultry Ph.D.'s. He suggested I feed some scratch grain, which I am afraid of, due to the possibility of my chowhound developing fatty liver disease from eating it. However, it is good that people are willing to share what they think. That is how we can learn from each other, sifting and weighing, and making decisions based on our own purposes and needs.

 

[Zach123]

Thank you Clare, I apriciate that very much. I just wanted to make sure that everyone reading my comments was on the same page since I don't want anyone getting the wrong impression about me. I'm aware I come on a little "strong" at times and its easy for people to take it that as me being contentious, especially on an internet forum where tone has to be implied.

That is very understandable, since no one wants their chicks to die by any means. There is probably nothing wrong with useing medicated feed, there is a much better chance that I'm just stubborn and stuck in my ways haha.

Quote:
This is absolutley true, in everything in life. In some cases I think a lot of people take rasing chickens a little too seriously and worry a lot about doing things "by the book". But, like most things, nothing is black and white and I have learned that nearly everything in raising poultry should be taken a guide line instead of a hard and fast rule. We have to remember that chickens are animals that are adapted to living "in the wild." Nature doesn't afford them perfect conditions and they are able to thrive pretty well. So we really needn't stress over making sure our brooders are at a perfect 95* or how old our chicks should be before they go outside. Its very good to hear what others think and what they have expierienced though, because it gives us the foundation to build our own thoughts upon. Furthermore, the more serious we are in raising our fowl the more work it becomes and the less fun is involved and thats not how it should be.

 

[galanie]

Where did you find the reference to two weeks' worth of calcium hurting roosters, Galanie?  I would like to read it for myself.

I just consulted a Ph.D. poultry expert and he said in his experience he hasn't heard of many problems with feeding roosters laying mash.  That is a relief.  Although I'm glad I have the rooster off it now and on All Flock instead.

Also, he said the ACV I've put in the drinking water may well have helped flush any excess calcium out of his kidneys, so that's good.

I have read of this concern many times here on BYC and "some" here have said that. Yeah, that's not at all scientific. The studies that show calcium is bad for them though feed the calcium over a number of years, from past links I've followed. Take that into consideration along with how many people have and still do simply feed their rooster layer food and don't appear to have problems, and I think giving some calcium is pretty safe, especially if it's just some beet greens and not years worth of layer food.

 

[Cindy in PA]

You have a point. My oldest rooster was 8 years old.

Cindy,

How long did your roosters live, fed laying mash?

My rooster is a special pet, hand raised by me. I want him to live as long as possible. I don't have him for practical reasons, unlike most people. From what I've read, most people are happy if their roosters live a couple of years only. But roosters can live a decade, if they are fed correctly and taken good care of. That's what I'd like for my boy.

So if you have a rooster and he dies after only 2 or 3 years, you can't be sure that it wasn't the laying mash that killed him. The excess calcium in it may have caused him to die of renal failure.

So the having no problems with feeding them laying mash is all relative, depending on what your purposes with your roosters are. I don't have predators, so I don't have to worry about him dying early from a predator killing him, but I do have to worry about what he eats and drinks. I had a hen succumb to fatty liver disease, I think, last summer, so I'm extra cautious now.

I'm very glad there is BYC. And Ph.D. experts. :>)

 

[Ridgerunner]

Here are a couple of those studies that talk about the damage excess calcium can do. One is pretty graphic with pictures. You'll notice these include feeding excess calcium from Day 1. The only study I've seen where they started feeding excess calcium any time other than from Day 1 was when they started feeding excess calcium to pullets in commercial laying flocks somewhere around 16 weeks of age to see if that gave them a kick start in egg production. I don't have that link, but results were inconclusive. That study was not looking specifically at internal damage anyway. So I don't know what happens to chicks if they are fed exclusively Layer starting at 4, 8, or 12 weeks. And don't forget, it is not about the percent of calcium in the feed as much as the total amount of calcium they eat. If they are free ranging, they may not get very much calcium from the feed.

Avian Gout
http://en.engormix.com/MA-poultry-i.../avian-gout-causes-treatment-t1246/165-p0.htm

British Study – Calcium and Protein
http://www.2ndchance.info/goutGuoHighProtein+Ca.pdf

I'll mention that a hen that is not laying is in the same situation as a rooster. She is not laying an egg to get rid of the excess calcium, so her organs also have to shed the excess calcium. You have to be a bit careful with recommendations to see if they are restricted to commercial operations or are meant for us. Commercial egg laying operations control when pullets start to lay by using the lights. They don't want them to start laying until they are old enough to lay a saleable egg. I'm not exactly sure when that is for commercial flocks of specially bred breeds and on a tightly controlled light and feed regimen, but I think it is somewhere around 22 weeks.

The normal recommendation on when to start Layer for us from the feed manufacturers is when they start to lay or at 20 weeks. I think that is intended for us, but I don't know how much of that is from looking at our situation or if they are just using the studies for commercial operations to come up with that. In any case, when I have chicks with the flock I feed Grower or Flock Raiser with oyster shell on the side until most of the pullets are laying. Then I switch to Layer.

I really think that there are pretty wide bounds of how much calcium or protein is OK for chickens, but they don't need an excess of anything. Each chicken is an individual with different tolerances, just like different humans can tolerate different amounts of certain foods. The way I look at it is to try to feed a fairly balanced diet and avoid excess of anything. That way I don't have to stress about it and I don't think I can do much better anyway.

I'm not a poultry science profession or medical professional at all. All this is just my opinion. Take it for what little it is worth.

 

[ClareScifi]

Thanks for sharing those studies, RidgeRunner! I love this sort of thing.

For me, reading the research and trying to figure out the optimal care and feeding of my chickens is the fun part, if that makes any sense?

They were given to me as a gift, I didn't choose them, so I see them more as a responsibility than a leisure pursuit. I love them, and they are fun, though.

I hadn't planned on a rooster, but I felt hatching eggs was less dangerous than bringing in a grown chicken as a companion for my sole Barred Rock, when her sister suddenly died last August. I knew the survivor needed a flock mate for the long winter ahead. amd 2 or 3 would be better than one, in case another one should die. So she hatched 6 eggs, 3 of which were roosters, and I had to rehome 2 roosters, which was so very difficult on me emotionally, as I had grown to love them, but there were not enough hens to go around, so the girls would have been overmated, had I kept all 3 roos, and the roos were not happy in a bachelor pen. I tried that.

Gosh, I had to interview at least 20 people before I found an adequate home for my boys. So many posers out there who wanted to eat my boys, while pretending they were going to give them a nice long life on a farm. Bogus addresses, bogus phone numbers. I drove to all the addresses. One man said he had 8 hens, and he had 50, but was in the city limits where roosters aren't allowed! It was just awful. Another fed his chickens nothing but pasta and rice! Finally I found a farm with 16 beautiful hens where both boys could go together, which was comforting to me. At least they had each other.

And then the whole episode with the StepMama and brother nearly pecking my little rooster to death, and me having to raise him myself. What a huge mess that was, but a lot of fun, too. Worry galore. I didn't think he'd make it through the first night, but he was a little survivor!

I have invested so much love and energy in him, that I feel I owe it to myself to research everything and try to be as forewarned as possible as to dangers/hazards. Of course, something I am totally unaware of will no doubt be what gets him, in the end. :>) I think I have a fear of death, or something? Perhaps there have been just one too many hard losses in my life? Keep in mind I have no children of my own, but that is another story...

I appreciate everyone's input very much. Please keep it coming.

 

[missnu01]

Cindy,

How long did your roosters live, fed laying mash?

My rooster is a special pet, hand raised by me. I want him to live as long as possible. I don't have him for practical reasons, unlike most people. From what I've read, most people are happy if their roosters live a couple of years only. But roosters can live a decade, if they are fed correctly and taken good care of. That's what I'd like for my boy.

So if you have a rooster and he dies after only 2 or 3 years, you can't be sure that it wasn't the laying mash that killed him. The excess calcium in it may have caused him to die of renal failure.

So the having no problems with feeding them laying mash is all relative, depending on what your purposes with your roosters are. I don't have predators, so I don't have to worry about him dying early from a predator killing him, but I do have to worry about what he eats and drinks. I had a hen succumb to fatty liver disease, I think, last summer, so I'm extra cautious now.

I'm very glad there is BYC. And Ph.D. experts. :>)

I have a huge white rock rooster that is probably between 4-6 years old, and he has eaten laying pellets as long as there have been hens around old enough to need it...and he has not one issue...So laying pellets won't hurt your rooster. I also give ACV in all the water...
I have just recently decided to give the flock raiser a try and see how it goes. My hens ate a lot of chick food for a few weeks and their eggs were all larger, and their shells were no softer...so...I bought a bag of 20% flock raiser this time...I am getting ready to order a few ducks and turkeys, so when they are here they will get the flock raiser, and I think I will just mix the flock raiser and laying pellets for the chickens...I think that will make everything perfect. Enough calcium, and more protein so I can keep getting those larger eggs.

We personally eat our extra roosters...so no worries there. I think you might be a little over protective...

 

[Sunny Days]

Hi hope I'm not getting off track here but I was just told that it is not safe to eat eggs from hens fed medicated feed. I am new to keeping chickens and have read quite a lot on this site but have not come across this before.

I had recently introduced 2 younger Peking bantams to my existing flock so changed back to feeding all the girls medicated grower. Does this effect the eggs being laid by the older hens? Are they okay to eat?