Chick Grower? Flock Raiser? All Flock?

[GreenMountainEric]

with out the studies word mean nothing.

Chris

Ok, well, if you have never seen a chicken peck at the ground, or at another chicken...... I don't know what to say, except, they are not looking for energy when they do that. If you need a study to understand that, you could probably find 1000 of them via google.....

 

[pbjls]

chris


You can post what you like. the readers will determine if you have actually added anything.

I make my own feed. I have been in direct contact with several animal nutritionalists who specialize in poultry to come up with both the rations I use and the way I offer feed. I also sell my feed and have the feed back from my customers. read some of Plamondon's or Blair's work. yes energy is very important. so are protien, color, paritcle size, freshness, vitimans, minerals(including calcium), and enzymes.

I guarntee that if you offer a high energy feed low in protien, and higher protien feed, and oystershell to a laying flock they would eat from all three. they do this because they can self regulate feed based on more than just energy.

 

[Chris09]

Ok, well, if you have never seen a chicken peck at the ground, or at another chicken...... I don't know what to say, except, they are not looking for energy when they do that. If you need a study to understand that, you could probably find 1000 of them via google.....

A chicken pecking at the ground or at another chicken can be for a number of reasons,
Chicken peck at the ground for grit, boredom etc.
Chickens pecking at each other can be for a number of reasons also, boredom, mite, lice, dominance etc.

I have had chickens for 40+ years and showed them for 30+ years, I'm not a back yard chicken raiser.


Chris

 

[GreenMountainEric]

A chicken pecking at the ground or at another chicken can be for a number of reasons,
Chicken peck at the ground for grit, boredom etc.
Chickens pecking at each other can be for a number of reasons also, boredom, mite, lice, dominance etc.

I have had chickens for 40+ years and showed them for 30+ years, I'm not a back yard chicken raiser.


Chris

Yes, chickens peck at the ground and each other for other reasons. They never peck at each other from boredom..... The #1 cause, that they will peck at each other, in an extensive manner, is a protein deficiency. (Light pecking is not what I am talking about).

Look, I realize that you have extensive experience with chickens. But you are wrong about them only eating to meet energy requirements. Chickens are very selective about what they eat, and although energy is their top goal, they will most certainly eat selectively to meet other needs. Chickens are very well noted for doing so.....

If you are concerned about experience, I have more than 20 years, and a BA in animal science. I have specialized in poultry nutrition for more than 15 years of that time.

 

[Chris09]

Yes, chickens peck at the ground and each other for other reasons. They never peck at each other from boredom..... The #1 cause, that they will peck at each other, in an extensive manner, is a protein deficiency. (Light pecking is not what I am talking about).

Look, I realize that you have extensive experience with chickens. But you are wrong about them only eating to meet energy requirements. Chickens are very selective about what they eat, and although energy is their top goal, they will most certainly eat selectively to meet other needs. Chickens are very well noted for doing so.....

If you are concerned about experience, I have more than 20 years, and a BA in animal science. I have specialized in poultry nutrition for more than 15 years of that time.

Quote: How long have you owned and raised chickens? (I have seen hens on the roost and in a show pen peck at each other for no reason other than boredom)



Quote: I will agree that a deficiency in protein or more so a lack of animal proteins in there diet will cause feather pecking. (I will also add that the breed and type of fowl also makes a big difference also, some breeds can be raised on a lower protein diet than others as long as it is a feed that contains animal proteins)

Chris

 

[pbjls]

chris

did you just say that a chicken will eat a feather that is not in its feed trough just because it needs animal protien? that is self regulation of feed consumption due to a factor not related to energy. they will also eat calcium seperate from energy if available because they can self regulate based on more than energy.

if you gave a high energy diet with low protien then feather pecking would become an issue because they are looking for portien and minerals.

add protien to feed or a seperate feeder with higher protien and the pecking would be reduced and the birds would eat from both feeders


if you gave a high protien diet they would eat more feed to get more energy.

add scratch with more energy and the birds would eat from both feeders to balance diet and consume less total feed


if you feed a low calcium diet they would produce fewer eggs and or have thinner shells.

add oyster shell either in the feed or seperate and the birds will return to normal production after eating both feed and calcium.

 

[GreenMountainEric]

How long have you owned and raised chickens? (I have seen hens on the roost and in a show pen peck at each other for no reason other than boredom)





I will agree that a deficiency in protein or more so a lack of animal proteins in there diet will cause feather pecking. (I will also add that the breed and type of fowl also makes a big difference also, some breeds can be raised on a lower protein diet than others as long as it is a feed that contains animal proteins)

Chris

I have raised small flocks for about 5 or 6 years. That light feather pecking is not what I am referring to..... If I chicken is protein deficient, they will get canabilistic. (feathers and flesh)


There is no breed of chicken that requires animal protein in their diet. Any Organic producer can tell you that. In fact, Animal proteins are being removed from most conventional chicken formulations as well. Feed companies have found that they don't need to use them, and the cost benefit is not worth the food safety risks. Animal proteins have been a useful addition for many years, but that era is ending.

 

[Chris09]

chris

did you just say that a chicken will eat a feather that is not in its feed trough just because it needs animal protien? that is self regulation of feed consumption due to a factor not related to energy. they will also eat calcium seperate from energy if available because they can self regulate based on more than energy.

if you gave a high energy diet with low protien then feather pecking would become an issue because they are looking for portien and minerals.

add protien to feed or a seperate feeder with higher protien and the pecking would be reduced and the birds would eat from both feeders


if you gave a high protien diet they would eat more feed to get more energy.

add scratch with more energy and the birds would eat from both feeders to balance diet and consume less total feed


if you feed a low calcium diet they would produce fewer eggs and or have thinner shells.

add oyster shell either in the feed or seperate and the birds will return to normal production after eating both feed and calcium.

Quote: I think you are missing what I am saying,
Chicken will eat to fill a energy need and energy is much like a light switch, when it is "on" they will eat when it is "off" the energy need is met and they stop eating.
NOW as long as the need for energy is there they can/will regulate there other needs i.e. proteins or calcium but when the energy need is met they will stop eating even if the protein or the calcium need has not been met yet.

Chris

 

[Chris09]

I have raised small flocks for about 5 or 6 years. That light feather pecking is not what I am referring to..... If I chicken is protein deficient, they will get canabilistic. (feathers and flesh)


There is no breed of chicken that requires animal protein in their diet. Any Organic producer can tell you that. In fact, Animal proteins are being removed from most conventional chicken formulations as well. Feed companies have found that they don't need to use them, and the cost benefit is not worth the food safety risks. Animal proteins have been a useful addition for many years, but that era is ending.

Quote: Not that long then.


Quote: They are OMNIVORES not HERBIVORES.
Now since they are omnivores they should be feed a animal proteins based feed not a cheep vegetarian feed..



Quote: Hate to tell you but there are a few good feed mfg's and local mills out there that STILL use animal proteins in there poultry feeds and since their sales and the the demand for these feed keep going up I don't see any "era" ending anytime soon. Way to many people are feeding only poultry feeds that contain animal proteins and drop the ones that don't.

Chris

 

[pbjls]

I have raised many thousands of chickens. I have made feed for other small farmers and small flock owners that would amount to many more thousands of healthy birds owned by happy farmers and back yard enthusiasts.

If it makes you feel better to talk about an "on off" switch fine. the fact remains that if chickens have access to each component seperatly the will eat some of each. If they dont have access then they try and find the missing elements. this can be seen in feather pecking, canibalism, eating oystershell, egg eating, over eating defecient feed, and other behavior. If they do not find the missing elements then the health and or production of the flock will suffer.