Chicken Genetics

[3riverschick]

Hackle color has a genetic component also- I have seen no research that deals with the variations in hackle color as expressed by the gold allele. There is a little on melanizers but not the gold allele.

Tim
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Hi Tim,
Look up Whiting hackle Farm website. there's a very long article about the genetics of hackle. Maybe something there.
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Thanks 3riverschick! But how odd that the BCM looks exactly like my BBR mixed roosters. So confusing to a newbie. I'm sticking with BCM and some blue cuckoos. Adding wheaten would be too much! LOL GOlden Salmons must have other genes that modify the main color?
Another question--how is the brown of partridge made? Is it another allele?



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Hi Arielle,
I'm a little behind on this thread. if this has already been answered...oh well, smile.
No, Golden Salmon ( BBR= Black- Breasted Red) have no other color which modifies the basic color. They *are* the basic color, e+/e+ s+/s+(-). Every other color in poultry is some modification of Golden Salmon (BBR), which colors are made by adding genes to, or replacing the BBR genes with other color genes.
Partridge is made on the eb locus. You can tell the difference in the chick down. the eb chick will have a brown helmet on its head. The e+ BBR chick has a clearly defined dark arrow of brown down which comes up over the nape of the neck and across the top of the skull. If the arrow of brown chick down on the skull in BBR chicks is blurry or has jagged edges or a "stair-stepped" design around the edges of the arrow, there is another gene(s) present than just e+/e+ s+/s+(-) BBR. Proper chick down is absolutely definitive for the proper BBR chick.
Best,
Karen

 

[tadkerson]

Karen,

My information comes from published and peer reviewed scientific journals. It is important that certain protocols are followed in order to insure the conclusions are valid and repeatable. Thank you for the heads up on the article.

Tim

 

[Arielle]

Thanks 3riverschick! But how odd that the BCM looks exactly like my BBR mixed roosters. So confusing to a newbie. I'm sticking with BCM and some blue cuckoos. Adding wheaten would be too much! LOL GOlden Salmons must have other genes that modify the main color?
Another question--how is the brown of partridge made? Is it another allele?



==============
Hi Arielle,
I'm a little behind on this thread. if this has already been answered...oh well, smile.
No, Golden Salmon ( BBR= Black- Breasted Red) have no other color which modifies the basic color. They *are* the basic color, e+/e+ s+/s+(-). Every other color in poultry is some modification of Golden Salmon (BBR), which colors are made by adding genes to, or replacing the BBR genes with other color genes.
Partridge is made on the eb locus. You can tell the difference in the chick down. the eb chick will have a brwon helmet on its head. The e+ BBR chick has a clearly defined dark arrow of brown down which comes up over the nape of the neck and across the top of the skull. If the arrow of brown chick down on the skull is blurrry or has jagged edges or a "stair-stepped" design around the edges of the arrow, there is another gene(s) present than just e+/e+ s+/s+(-) BBR. Proper chick down is absolutely definitive for the proper BBR chick.
Best,
Karen

Thanks for the this Karen. Really helps to have the gene code listed.

s+/s+ is this gold, and silver is S ?

Many people have suggested using the websites witht the genetics calculator--hard to do until the basics are understood.

The partridge hen was my first as a year old hen. I have 4 offspring from the same rooster, and they all look different!! Not sure if that makes learning easier or more difficult! lol I knew to look at the chick down, but not what to look for ! Super details.

 

[3riverschick]

Karen,

My information comes from published and peer reviewed scientific journals. It is important that certain protocols are followed in order to insure the conclusions are valid and repeatable. Thank you for the heads up on the article.

Tim

More than welcome, Tad. I was just sayin' I started to read this article by one of the world's foremost breeders of genetic hackle....it's so long, I haven't finished it and a bit technical for me....so thought you might find something there.
Best,
Karen

 

[TShelton54]

Salmon is based on eWh Wheaten. The golden version of BBR (e+e+) is Golden Duckwing. Tim Shelton

 

[Arielle]

Salmon is based on eWh Wheaten. The golden version of BBR (e+e+) is Golden Duckwing. Tim Shelton

Tim--can you expand on this; I'm lost.

 

[Henk69]

Yes, the french call the duckwing colors salmon too.

 

[3riverschick]

Yes, the french call the duckwing colors salmon too.

Henk is right, don't let it throw you, Arielle.
First of all BBR is golden That's what makes it BBR. Second, In Favorelles, Salmon is based on eWh. But that's not Marans. In Marans, Golden Salmon is BBR. Now BBR is the basic color. There is no such thing a Golden BBR or regular BBR. It's just BBR which is basic wildtype. e+/e+ with only the s+/s+ gene. s+/s- in females.
The French are an artistically inclined culture. They named the BBR Marans after the female, instead of the male as most breeds do. Thus, Golden Salmon (gold bird with salmon breast) instead of Black Breasted male with Red. The Silver Salmon { e+/e+ S/S(-) } is also named after the female of the variety , even tho it is a Silver Duckwing.
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The name Salmon (according to Van Dort and Hancoxs' book, is used in French, German and USA Favorelles; Wyandottes and Dutch bantams. However in every case, there are extra genes involved other than e+/e+ s+/s+(-). These are not wildtype breeds!
Page 209: Salmon: (Autosomal red silver wheaten)
French Favorelles: eWh/eWh S/S Ar+/Ar+ Mh/Mh
German Favorelles: eWh/eWh S/S Ar+/Ar+ Mh/Mh
USA Favorelles: eWh/eWh S/S Ar+/ar Mh/h+ Di/di+
Wyandotte: eb/eb or Ewh/eWh S/S Ar+/Ar+ Mh/Mh (pg+/pg+)
Dutch bantam e+/e+ S/S Ar+/Ar+ Mh/Mh Co/Co
All these Salmons are built on Silver.
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Someone show me a scientific place of good repute where a BBR is also called a Golden Duckwing.
With all respect, I have never found one and don't believe it exists.
Van Dort and Hancox, Quoting Page 191: Golden Duckwing;
e+/e+ S/S Ar+/Ar+ (Di/Di) in the hen ; e+/e+ S/S Ar+/ar (Di/Di) in the cock
This variety is made by combination of Silver and autosomal red, Dilute is often present but is not essential. Hackle stripping shows a lot of variation in this color."
This color description is a huge problem in Golden Salmon Marans. Early on, I bred Golden Duckwing and actually thought I had e+/eb based Golden Salmon. I also actually touted this color as a Golden Salmon with an added gene I was going to bred out...not knowing I actually had a Silver bird! Golden Salmon Marans breeders must stop using this color description. It doesn't describe any color anyone would want to achieve in either a Golden Salmon or Silver Salmon breeding program. I believe it is one reason, "Silver Salmon" and "Red-Shouldered Silver Duckwing" show up in a Golden Salmon breeding program.

Best,
Karen

 

[Arielle]

Yes, the french call the duckwing colors salmon too.

THanks Henk.

I started reading your website listed below in earnest. I loved the examples. I have 2 blue AMeraucanas, and 2 black split for lav. With those genes as examples and seeing my birds and helped me better understand the genetics.