Chicken Poop

@lazy gardener Thank you! Actually my satellite internet connection data cap just reset, so I will try to check out the BTE film again. I only got 2-3 minutes into it before my streaming playback just locked up.

I was not familiar with Ruth Stout, but with a quick read on Wikipedia I can see she had some good sense about gardening! I'll add that to the upcoming research pile.

My VERY cursory exposure on those two methods leaves me wondering: do their methods eliminate the need for fertilizer? I'll be interested to learn! The "natural farming" of Masanobu Fukuoka got stuck in my brain because he says you can grow without fertilizer!

Now he DID use poultry manure on his cereal crops. But that was the only imported matter to his grain growing operation and not used in excessive amounts. He continuously cropped his grain fields for over 40 years with no tillage/cultivation, no fertilizers (apart from the poultry manure), no weeding, and no chemicals of any kind. Also he only used hand tools so no fossil fuels were needed, and equipment maintenance was very simple. The result? His yields were at least as good as the best conventional growers.

I think you and I appreciate "laziness" very much. So did Fukuoka :)

Additionally I'm hoping to use parts of my unused land to grow enough strategic green manures for the ALL the veggie gardening efforts. My goal is NO external inputs - to not even need animal manure! Of course adequate seed saving on that scale will take many years to get right... But I'm excited to try new things!

Oh! If anyone wants woodchips for whatever homesteading/gardening projects/experiments, make friends with a local arborist or two :) I think we got 40 yards of free chips this year. Of course you can't be picky about free chips. But, hey, free chips!
 
@lazy gardener Thank you! Actually my satellite internet connection data cap just reset, so I will try to check out the BTE film again. I only got 2-3 minutes into it before my streaming playback just locked up.

I was not familiar with Ruth Stout, but with a quick read on Wikipedia I can see she had some good sense about gardening! I'll add that to the upcoming research pile.

My VERY cursory exposure on those two methods leaves me wondering: do their methods eliminate the need for fertilizer? I'll be interested to learn! The "natural farming" of Masanobu Fukuoka got stuck in my brain because he says you can grow without fertilizer!

Now he DID use poultry manure on his cereal crops. But that was the only imported matter to his grain growing operation and not used in excessive amounts. He continuously cropped his grain fields for over 40 years with no tillage/cultivation, no fertilizers (apart from the poultry manure), no weeding, and no chemicals of any kind. Also he only used hand tools so no fossil fuels were needed, and equipment maintenance was very simple. The result? His yields were at least as good as the best conventional growers.



I think you and I appreciate "laziness" very much. So did Fukuoka :)

Additionally I'm hoping to use parts of my unused land to grow enough strategic green manures for the ALL the veggie gardening efforts. My goal is NO external inputs - to not even need animal manure! Of course adequate seed saving on that scale will take many years to get right... But I'm excited to try new things!

Oh! If anyone wants woodchips for whatever homesteading/gardening projects/experiments, make friends with a local arborist or two :) I think we got 40 yards of free chips this year. Of course you can't be picky about free chips. But, hey, free chips!


Both Ruth and Paul state that you can grow a successful garden without chemical fertilizer inputs. But, IMO it depends on the soil structure you start out with, which determines how soon you reach that point. With both approaches, I do also use fertilizers, but hope to reach the point where my crops grow very well without them. IMO, I'd rather rely on a bit of miracle gro, or some 5 - 10 - 10 to harvest a bumper crop of 22# squash than go completely organic and get 2#ers while I'm waiting for my deep mulch to do it's magic.

I am convinced that it is possible to grow crops which out yield mega agra farms, without the huge chemical inputs. But it requires thinking outside the box. Such out of the box thinking (or return to the common sense approach of long ago) will preserve our soil instead of making it so sick that it can't produce any thing of nutrition.

A year or so ago, I did a bit of reading regarding the desertification process that is going on in our country. Our grain belt top soils are being lost not by the inch, but by the FOOT! Other countries who have dealt with this same problem, either due to farming or more natural means have completely reversed this process by taking a lot of marginal farm land out of the veggie/grain food chain, and planting it to grasses, then running herd animals on it. The combination of grass/herd animals reverses the process while making a huge contribution to the human food chain.

I'm not familiar with your Manasouba. More reading for me.

Other thoughts: (Garden Way) Joy of Gardening by Dick Raymond. He's a fun read. It's an old book. While a lot of his practices are counter to what you and I are trying to accomplish, there is some great stuff in his book. I pick out the gold nuggets and leave the rest. He's big into chemical fertilizers, insecticides, and pulverizing his soil with his trusty Troybilt. BUT, the gold nuggets: His wide row cropping, pushing the season with row covers, intercropping, in row weeder, green manure cropping, including edible green manure crops, Crop rotation in which he IS able to grow good successive crops without chemical fertilizer by good humus build up, rotating legumes with grains, green manure crops and traditional garden plants.

Finally, Eliot Coleman: Master of the 4 season garden, even here in Maine. I believe he's in zone 4.

And the nuggets of wisdom from Harvey Ussery regarding the inputs from a poultry flock. Too much of a good thing is NOT A GOOD THING. He is the only person I've ever heard to address the issue of overloading the soil with Phosphorous. He also tells how to monitor it and correct it if it does happen. He also speaks about ensuring that there is not contaminated water running off the poultry property. How often do we EVER hear any one talk about these issues?

In addition to the traditional green manure crops, please check out the Bocking strains of Comfrey. I have #14 planted in my orchard.
 
@lazy gardener I think we may have gone a little overboard from the OP's questions :) But wonderful stuff!

We'll do organic amendments this season, but by next season I hope to just be using green manures and intercropping clover for garden fertilizing. I'm 100% committed to no chemicals of any kind. We can never understand how they interfere with a healthy ecosystem - we can never fully understand how a healthy ecosystem actually works in its entirety :)

Yes, you can use definitely use too much animal manures and overload the soil with P and K (and possibly lose N as ammonia to the atmosphere). The best soil book I've read on soil building including manure use is "Building Soils for Better Crops" by Magdoff and van Es.

More reading fun!! Definitely check out "The One Straw Revolution" by Masanobu Fukuoka. It's a short read. His successful natural farming dovetailed into reforestation and combating desertification:
http://www.onestrawrevolution.net/

@Mini Meat mentioned the work of John D Liu in your BTE/HK topic. Liu's work is hugely inspiring and the closest I've seen to someone trying to put principles like Fukuoka's into practice at the state and international level.
(https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...ther-non-conventional-garden-methods.1114524/)

I have yet to read Coleman, but he's definitely on the list (next winter at the latest)! Season extension is something we're working towards. According to the USDA's current Map, the Coleman's Four Seasons Farm is Z5B. Speaking of well-known Maine gardeners who write books, I'm working through Will Bonsall's "Essential Guide to Radical, Self-Reliant Gardening." He is in Zone 4B like us and doesn't use much in the way of season extension. The Nearings "Good Life" books also have good discussions on low-tech season extension and cold weather growing.

The Nearings didn't use fertilizer nor manure, but used actual minerals and seaweed. Bonsall also forgoes fertilizers and manures, he uses wood ash, some seaweed and lots of green manures. They all composted tremendous amounts of material each season as well. So many different ways to do things!
 

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