Chickens Not Allowed, Going to Anyway.

[CentralOregon]

I'm in Chandler, AZ and am also not allowed to have chickens. I would like to try and change the law, but not sure where to start.

You mean you missed that big ol' sticky at the top of the forum you posted this comment in? If so, it might be better to let someone else lead the charge.

 

[CentralOregon]

Get some Serama. They are kept as household pets in Thailand/Malaysia and nobody in their right mind could mistake them for a production bird, this gives you a leg up if you want to argue their pet status. If someone gets upset, they are small enough you could keep them in a rabbit hutch or a large bird cage in the garage (or inside if you are brave), depending on how many you want. Not sure if I would be a "lawbreaker", could you just purchase the chickens and let your friend house them while you retain visitation rights? If you DID decide to be an outlaw, I would check the feelings of your closest neighbors, as they would most likely be the ones to file a complaint.

But . . . . if you spend energy to change the law, you will not only benefit yourself by making chickens legal, you will help many others and educate your town on how wonderful chickens can be

Most of the above comment is bad advice, with the exception of the last sentence. If the location in question was Thailand, you'd have a point -- and the leg up you mentioned. But it's not. Most ordinances will specifically reference chickens and/or other fowl, and it doesn't matter if it's a production bird or not. You're further saying that if someone gets upset, then the chickens can be turned into more tightly caged birds easily enough. And surely you're not suggesting keeping chickens in the house? I mean, that would be ok in Thailand and other bird-flu-y third-worldish countries, but it's simply not healthy.

 

[CentralOregon]

As all good chicken owners know chickens only smell if you dont clean up their coop, compost or dispose of bedding properly. We love our chickens so much so we would never let them live in dirty conditions. We don't want to smell it either nor do we want to jeopardize ours or the chickens health- so of course we keep things spotless! They have no basis for their problems with the chickens. We have come to termRs with the fact they just hate us. We have bluegrass jams on a regular basis. We have a garden, compost, friends with tattoos. Oh the horror we cramp their subarbanite lifestyle!
We are on a crusade to change the laws in Chandler. Please contact me if you would like to help or we may help you on your crusade in your city.
In the mean time we will hide our chickens in the shed and under the trampoline. They are our pets and we love all 10 of our girls! So much so three of them come in our house to lay their eggs- that's where they are most comfy. When our "mother" hen went broody we thought she was sick (inexperienced chicken owner) we spent $300 at the vet on her. If that's not love for a family pet then I don't know what is. All I know is the City of Chandler prosecutor isnt buying into the "chickens as pets" story. To our nosey pain in the butt neighbor; keeping chickens is the same punishment as assult......

Just because you keep your flock clean, does not mean there is no basis for people to have problems with chickens. The biggest problem with chickens is that people get all caught up in the "oh how cute" and start to think of them as pets and "love" them. I'm not saying you shouldn't care for your chickens, but certainly, treating chickens as pets doesn't end well most of the time, particularly when the owners are breaking laws to have them. The prosecutor is not buying your chickens as pets story because chickens are not pets, regardless whether they are treated that way or not. Oh, and letting a chicken lay eggs in the house? Absolutely absurd given the host of nasties that chickens carry on their bodies.

 

[CentralOregon]

Re-read that post Phlimm. It is ILLEGAL in the City of Chandler to have chickens on properties smaller than 33000 sf. The property MUST be zoned agrarian. The main entry in the post chandler-arizona-chicken-ordinance dose not cite the entire law but only glosses the section of the zoning where it is permissible (agrarian residential). 80% of the residences in Chandler CANNOT have backyard chickens legally. I kept mine in the backyard for over six months before the City of Chandler caught wind and threatened animal control would be called to seize the hens and the city would cite me for a zoning violation.


So I have until this Friday to comply. What's crazy is I buy a house assuming I have certain property rights, but I can't keep chickens. According to the letter of the law, in the same residence I can't keep a hutch of rabbits either. Sure, I might try to get away with a pet bunny kept inside the garage (gross) or on the patio, but rabbits also fall into the legal definition of "livestock" in the Chandler City Code. I guess the zoning officer has to discern what a common household pet is.

I'd hate for them to learn about my 3 year old Bengal Cat, which although it's technically a domestic, the City refers to it as a "exotic hybrid." My neigbor frantically came by when he got out one day. He's a housecat with spots for crying out loud! But she's from India and I guess the spots scared her. He is a 20lbs cat, not a tiger by any means.... LOL

On top of that, I can barely keep a dog. I have a beagle and the same next door neighbor called the city and the county on me because she howls while Im at work. Apparently, my neighbor is a pain in the @55 and I've learned keeping pets in Chandler, Arizona is almost as difficult as in NYC.

The only pet that hasn't raised ire with the Chandler community is my tropical freshwater fish.

So I'm digging out a Tilapia pond in the backyard.

The problem is simply this: you assumed too much and researched too little. But let me get this straight... you are calling your neighbor a pain in the arse because she is unwilling to tolerate your hound wailing all day and was frightened by a 20# spotted cat? Before calling the neighbor a pain in the arse, you might look in the mirror and repeat that same phrase. Leaving a dog outside to howl all day is being an irresponsible pet owner -- the neighbor has every right to think that if you can't manage a simple dog, there's no reason to think you could handle a single chicken. In fact, based on what you've written here, if I was your neighbor -- even though I fully support backyard flocks -- I would be unable to support your particular effort simply based on the track record of irresponsible pet-ownership. Bear in mind that I don't mean this as an attack against you, personally; simply stating the facts as they are seen from by outside party.

 

[CentralOregon]

...the laws were enacted as a precaution to guard the commercial flocks against disease from private chicken owners.

That is a completely legitimate concern. Just look around these forums -- most people who get chickens have never kept chickens, have no knowledge of the health issues/risks, and essentially have no idea what they're doing other than a bunch of high-fivey comments on a forum where too many others have the same attitudes toward chickens. Turn on the news. For example, this just happened as a direct result of people treating backyard flocks as the pets, which is very probably the majority of backyard owners.

 

[CentralOregon]

People should get a life and stop worrying about what their neighbors are doing.....I have been against Homeowners Associations for years...it is unAmerican....and we should be able to do what we want on our own property!!! After all we are paying for it!

So true. That chicken keeping lawbreaker should get a life and stop worrying about the people making complaints around them. Oh, that's not what you meant...but you see how easily the shoe slips on the other foot. If you don't like a homeowners association, don't move into one. Problem solved. If you want to be able to do what you want on your own property, you don't move into a subdivision. Ever. Seriously, that's just Basic Homeownership 101. If you think you "own" your home in a subdivision, just try not paying the association dues; you're merely renting the space if you're in an HOA, my friend.

 

[Beekissed]

I think that is what confuses me the most....folks who are in an HOA KNOW they are in one, signed all the necessary documents, intentionally located themselves there...and THEN don't like them? Want to get all brody and defiant about the rules and all? It's weird to me....didn't they read the contract and sign it in good faith of actually fulfilling their end of it? Why then the boo-hooing over living in a HOA controlled neighborhood? Or in any town that has those restrictions, for that matter.

There is a trade off wherever you live and folks can't often have all things in all places. For instance, I live out in the country....I can have or build anything I wish, but I have no cell service, no good internet, no close stores, no fire department or police stations or anything else , for that matter and I have to drive 20-30 miles to reach work or anything. You won't hear me complaining about these things because I choose to live where I live, so I accept the limitations of that living.

Folks who live in towns obviously want to live there so they can have all the advantages of living in a town, so why then try to have the advantages of living in the country at the same time? Sheer willfulness and defiance? One can't often have their cake and eat it all up at the same time....but for some strange reason there are many folks who feel very entitled to that possibility. Get a life? How about just living the one you signed on for and stop complaining like a child who can't have the toy another child has.

 

[CentralOregon]

I think that is what confuses me the most....folks who are in an HOA KNOW they are in one, signed all the necessary documents, intentionally located themselves there...and THEN don't like them? Want to get all brody and defiant about the rules and all? It's weird to me....didn't they read the contract and sign it in good faith of actually fulfilling their end of it? Why then the boo-hooing over living in a HOA controlled neighborhood? Or in any town that has those restrictions, for that matter.

There is a trade off wherever you live and folks can't often have all things in all places. For instance, I live out in the country....I can have or build anything I wish, but I have no cell service, no good internet, no close stores, no fire department or police stations or anything else , for that matter and I have to drive 20-30 miles to reach work or anything. You won't hear me complaining about these things because I choose to live where I live, so I accept the limitations of that living.

Folks who live in towns obviously want to live there so they can have all the advantages of living in a town, so why then try to have the advantages of living in the country at the same time? Sheer willfulness and defiance? One can't often have their cake and eat it all up at the same time....but for some strange reason there are many folks who feel very entitled to that possibility. Get a life? How about just living the one you signed on for and stop complaining like a child who can't have the toy another child has.

I couldn't agree more with what you just said. I have 2 homes -- one is in a tight subdivision (1700sqft on less than a 10th of an acre), and the other is outside of city limits (2100sqft on 20 acres) so I have a simultaneous perspective on property rights issues that many people won't have. While I did indeed read all the CC&Rs of the subdivision, it is my guess it's very likely that many people never do read them; I figure they just see the cookie-cutter house and the well-kept neighborhood and sign on the line. Is that any excuse to not follow the rules to which we are contractually obligated, or an excuse to whine on the internet because the choices we made do not allow the things that we want? Of course not. It falls under the "we sleep in the bed that we make" notion. But you pretty much pointed that out already...

BTW, everything about your last 2 sentences was absolutely WIN, WIN, WIN. Too bad most people probably won't take the hint...

 

[BrekanArts]

Of course. I grew up in a rural area with livestock. It's common knowledge to farm folk. Wash your hands, sanitize the coop, etc...

I think people assume their dealing with a small herd of cats when the get chickens. Chickens aren't the only culprit though. People (mostly kids) get seriously ill annually from bacteria and viruses carried by reptiles and amphibians as well. Those folks raised in urban environments without the knowledge of precautionary sanitation, flock care etc., could easily assume that livestock can be made to function as pet. Dogs and cats were domesticated in ancient times from wolves and coyotes. It didn't happen overnight. Try bringing a wolf into your house and see how well that works out.

The cultivation of jungle fowl into barnyard livestock took near equally as long in evolutionary terms. Consider that chickens are not once mentioned in the old testament (the Torah.) They were not common to west 4000 years ago. The Romans brought fowl to the west. And the lessons of bird disease and flock care became known generation by generation on farms.

All of this shouldn't preclude one from being able to own a small flock legally. Like I said, ANY animal is a potential liability and huge responsibility. Education, not prohibition is the answer.

 

[BrekanArts]

@CentralOregon ANY animal is a potential liability and huge responsibility. .

You assume I leave for a 9-5 job and neglegt my animals days on length. I don't. I'm commanded to care for my animals to the best of my ability and so much that I am commanded to feed them before I feed myself. I work from home most days and will get 3 day stints on site. Well, when Daddy is gone Shelby the dog whines. My post was more of a vented frustration towards pet ownership and neighbor complaints. They were being asses for not addressing me, as a neighbor, first. calling authorities was being overzealous. I brought them a dozen eggs and welcomed them to the neighborhood when they moved in. They've been very cold. And I admit bringing a dog home has not been a wise decision but I was a sucker for that beagle face. I was also an *** about how I dealt with my neighbor, duly admitted. Shelby's a good dog, but very needy for attention and will beg for it. A daily walk doesn't cut it. So, we're finding Shelby a new home. She needs constant attention or a muzzle. LOL. If you're in AZ and want a 4 year old beagle, she's precious and wants ALOT of love.

My cat was de-clawed as a kitten by the breeder, very gentle with the full grown chickens (never left unattended obviously, because nature is nature). For the most part the bengal cat is now kept exclusively inside for HIS OWN GOOD, unless I am in the yard with him. He likes to chew on the leaves and grass. Again, I don't let the cat prowl unattended (leave the door open while I work on the patio) because I'm afraid some one will shoot him or something. People overreact quite a bit these days. Lots of over-sensitive brash judgments in the post 9-11 world. I don;t feel any safer. I don't feel safer with chicken laws and I don;t feel safer with NSA wiretapping. From the top to the bottom, I feel less free, less secure and less American than ever before.

As far as my chickens I kept four until recently. I'm selling the flock off now and selling this property. We're moving to an area of town more conducive to farm life (within zoning, no HOA).

I did read my HOA policy and it was very vague about what pets it would allow, and those it would not. However, I did not do my due diligence in regards to Chandler's zoning laws. Being that Chandler was a traditionally ranch and farm community, I had no idea the chicken laws were enacted when the city was incorporated twenty years ago. Live and learn. Do you think I am researching and reading the zoning laws in the areas I'm looking now? You betcha. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again.

As far as the HOA, It says the owner must diligently clean up animal waste in common areas and yards to ensure there's no odor or pest nuisances. Which no one denies i comply with these basic animal care responsibilities. The CC&Rs go on to say disruptive, loud, barking etc., is to be referred to the authorities as a nuisance. Which makes sense. My dog was a nuisance (and will bark if she thinks I'm gone). But what irks me is the HOA board has the sole discretion of allowing one households pet marmoset, but denying another's angora bunny. Completely arbitrary rules.

At this point, with the recovery of property value here, I'm not interested enough in staying in a neighborhood with these very un-neighborly, neighbors anyway. My neighbors never wave when I'm walking to synagogue on Saturday, and some even yell expletives or what have you. It's just turned out to be less freedom and more conformity. I'm not looking to assimilate into gentile culture and HOA's are all about assimilation, conformity, uniformity, etc... America is about freedom. HOA's are about you are contractually relinquishing some of your property rights for a promise of maintained or improved "property values." This is because of a general real estate principle that prevails, as any appraiser will tell you, "conformity is value." Gag me.