Chickens still not playing nice. Help

[klester1017]

Hi, I have 3 rr that are about 16 or 17 weeks old. I also have five 11 week olds that I put in coop at 8 weeks old. They were divided by chicken wire so the bigger girls could see them for 3 weeks. I just took the divider down so my littles could go out to the run. Well my big girls won’t let them out to play. They chase them back in all the time. This seems like an awful long time for them to be used to each other. I have to basically lock big girls up and let littles out to run. Any other ideas would be appreciated. I can only do this when I’m home. So the littles only get outside time on weekends. I feel so bad because they love it in the dirt.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

RIRs tend to be the bullies of a mixed flock. Worse yet, they were an established flock when you brought in much younger birds.
About all you can do is remove the bullies or at least two of them and allow the rest to establish a flock in the main housing. Then after a week you can start bringing in the older birds one at a time every few days. If bullying continues, do it all over again. By then, the new birds will be closer to full grown.

 

[aart]

This seems like an awful long time for them to be used to each other.

The 3 weeks of 'see not touch' is just the beginning.
Now they need to learn to occupy the same space.
It may take another month.

How big is your coop and run, in feet by feet?
Dimensions and pics would help garner suggestions.

Here some tips that may help you understand:
Integration Basics:
It's all about territory and resources(space/food/water).
Existing birds will almost always attack new ones to defend their resources.
Understanding chicken behaviors is essential to integrating new birds into your flock.

Confine new birds within sight but physically segregated from older/existing birds for several weeks, so they can see and get used to each other but not physically interact.

In adjacent runs, spread scratch grains along the dividing mesh, best if mesh is just big enough for birds to stick their head thru, so they get used to eating together.

The more space, the better. Birds will peck to establish dominance, the pecked bird needs space to get away. As long as there's no copious blood drawn and/or new bird is not trapped/pinned down and beaten unmercilessly, let them work it out. Every time you interfere or remove new birds, they'll have to start the pecking order thing all over again.

Multiple feed/water stations. Dominance issues are most often carried out over sustenance, more stations lessens the frequency of that issue.

Places for the new birds to hide 'out of line of sight'(but not a dead end trap) and/or up and away from any bully birds. Roosts, pallets or boards leaned up against walls or up on concrete blocks, old chairs tables, branches, logs, stumps out in the run can really help. Lots of diversion and places to 'hide' instead of bare wide open run.
Good to 'clutter up' the run too:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/a-cluttered-run.1323792/

 

[aart]

Oh, and....Welcome to BYC! @klester1017
Where in this world are you located?
Climate, and time of year, is almost always a factor.
Please add your general geographical location to your profile.
It's easy to do, (laptop version shown), then it's always there!

 

[klester1017]

The 3 weeks of 'see not touch' is just the beginning.
Now they need to learn to occupy the same space.
It may take another month.

How big is your coop and run, in feet by feet?
Dimensions and pics would help garner suggestions.

Here some tips that may help you understand:
Integration Basics:
It's all about territory and resources(space/food/water).
Existing birds will almost always attack new ones to defend their resources.
Understanding chicken behaviors is essential to integrating new birds into your flock.

Confine new birds within sight but physically segregated from older/existing birds for several weeks, so they can see and get used to each other but not physically interact.

In adjacent runs, spread scratch grains along the dividing mesh, best if mesh is just big enough for birds to stick their head thru, so they get used to eating together.

The more space, the better. Birds will peck to establish dominance, the pecked bird needs space to get away. As long as there's no copious blood drawn and/or new bird is not trapped/pinned down and beaten unmercilessly, let them work it out. Every time you interfere or remove new birds, they'll have to start the pecking order thing all over again.

Multiple feed/water stations. Dominance issues are most often carried out over sustenance, more stations lessens the frequency of that issue.

Places for the new birds to hide 'out of line of sight'(but not a dead end trap) and/or up and away from any bully birds. Roosts, pallets or boards leaned up against walls or up on concrete blocks, old chairs tables, branches, logs, stumps out in the run can really help. Lots of diversion and places to 'hide' instead of bare wide open run.
Good to 'clutter up' the run too:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/a-cluttered-run.1323792/

Hi. My coop is 5x10 and I have a 10x10 run for them.

 

[Ridgerunner]

To me what you describe is pretty much what I'd expect with those ages and the small space. Knowing how much room you have does help, thanks for that. More mature chickens outrank less mature chickens in the pecking order. They are often not shy about enforcing their pecking order rights when their personal space is violated. There are always exceptions. I've had some pretty young chicks be able to mingle with the older hens without problems, but the majority of the time that doesn't happen. The hens often peck the chicks when they get to close and it usually doesn't take long for the chicks to learn to avoid the older ones as much as they can. Sounds like yours have.

But they need room to avoid. Your 10 x 10 run doesn't give hem much room for that, so the younger ones stay in the coop when the older are in the run. It's pretty common when I open the coop in the morning that my young ones are on the roosts while the older ones are on the cop floor. And the really young ones are hiding under my nests. They are doing their best to avoid.

I don't know what your coop looks like inside. My immature ones usually do not sleep on the main roosts with the adults without the protection of a broody hen until they mature enough to force their way into the pecking order. With my pullets that's usually when they start to lay. Until then mine mostly find some other place to sleep. As I said, there can be exceptions. Good luck on that. With mine, when they are settling down to sleep is often the most trying time.

So what can you do? As long as no one is getting hurt, you can keep doing what you are doing. That's my definition of a successful integration, no one gets hurt. All that stuff about them becoming one big happy flock hanging out together can come later. If they are free to interact that time may come earlier.

Is there a way to expand the coop or especially the run? Can you give them enough room to be outside at the same time and still avoid each other? That's usually not easy. You can improve the quality of the room you have by adding clutter. You still need to be ale to work in there without hurting yourself, but adding things for them to hide under, behind, or over can help. Multiple feeding and watering stations well separated or at least out of line of sight can help, but 10 feet doesn't give you much room to work.

I understand your coop and run square feet sizes meet the general recommendations you often see on this forum for the number of birds you have, but that is for a fully mature already-integrated flock. You will probably be fine when they all mature. But integration often requires more room, especially if there are maturity differences. You may see some drama until they reach that point. Observe them and be ready to separate them if someone starts to get hurt. Hopefully that won't be necessary.

 

[klester1017]

To me what you describe is pretty much what I'd expect with those ages and the small space. Knowing how much room you have does help, thanks for that. More mature chickens outrank less mature chickens in the pecking order. They are often not shy about enforcing their pecking order rights when their personal space is violated. There are always exceptions. I've had some pretty young chicks be able to mingle with the older hens without problems, but the majority of the time that doesn't happen. The hens often peck the chicks when they get to close and it usually doesn't take long for the chicks to learn to avoid the older ones as much as they can. Sounds like yours have.

But they need room to avoid. Your 10 x 10 run doesn't give hem much room for that, so the younger ones stay in the coop when the older are in the run. It's pretty common when I open the coop in the morning that my young ones are on the roosts while the older ones are on the cop floor. And the really young ones are hiding under my nests. They are doing their best to avoid.

I don't know what your coop looks like inside. My immature ones usually do not sleep on the main roosts with the adults without the protection of a broody hen until they mature enough to force their way into the pecking order. With my pullets that's usually when they start to lay. Until then mine mostly find some other place to sleep. As I said, there can be exceptions. Good luck on that. With mine, when they are settling down to sleep is often the most trying time.

So what can you do? As long as no one is getting hurt, you can keep doing what you are doing. That's my definition of a successful integration, no one gets hurt. All that stuff about them becoming one big happy flock hanging out together can come later. If they are free to interact that time may come earlier.

Is there a way to expand the coop or especially the run? Can you give them enough room to be outside at the same time and still avoid each other? That's usually not easy. You can improve the quality of the room you have by adding clutter. You still need to be ale to work in there without hurting yourself, but adding things for them to hide under, behind, or over can help. Multiple feeding and watering stations well separated or at least out of line of sight can help, but 10 feet doesn't give you much room to work.

I understand your coop and run square feet sizes meet the general recommendations you often see on this forum for the number of birds you have, but that is for a fully mature already-integrated flock. You will probably be fine when they all mature. But integration often requires more room, especially if there are maturity differences. You may see some drama until they reach that point. Observe them and be ready to separate them if someone starts to get hurt. Hopefully that won't be necessary.

here is the inside of my coop. When looked in last night to close the coop door the littles where on the higher roost with big girls for the first time. Just on the opposite side. Not together. I guess that’s a little progress.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes, I'd consider that good news. I've had a hen leave her normal roosting spot to go to the far end of the roost to pester younger chicks. At least you are not getting that.

 

[IamRainey]

They'll work it out. It's tough on us but they deal with it over time. If you don't see blood just let them have the time they need.

Make sure there are multiple locations for food and water. When I give treats like shredded cabbage or sunflower seeds I draw it out into a long line on the ground so the mean girls can only defend a portion of it. And if the newbies don't get a full share it won't matter either if they get their well-balance feed.

For next time: when I introduced my last clutch of newbies I raised them in a wire dog kennel inside the run from the time they could stay warm outside. They had a couple twig roosts inside their kennel and their own source of food and water. When I gave treats I placed the newbies' inside the kennel and the established flock's treats just outside the kennel walls. That way they were all safe in close proximity and the established flock got used to eating next to the chicklets. When they were ready to integrate I simply left the door of the kennel open. Easiest, calmest integration I ever had by far!