Choosing the correct food

[Farm Up North]

I personally haven't gone into the science of chicken feed, but I can tell you how it goes down with my flock. My old ladies were on chick feed until 16 weeks, then I moved them onto Layer feed (this was per the bag's instruction).

When I went to integrate new chicks in this spring, I had read that too much calcium was not so good for the littles, and some of my ladies aren't laying anymore anyway, so I switched them over to Nutrena Nature-Wise All-Flock and supplied calcium on the side. As of right now, they all are eating a mix of the chick grower and all-flock until I run out of the remainder of my chick feed at which point it will be all all-flock.

I have noticed that since I made this switch, my previously diarrhea-y hen has been much better, so I think I made the right choice on moving from layer feed for her. Everyone seems happy and healthy, and eggs that I do get from my oldies have solid shells.

All of my chickens have always had free-choice 24/7 to food and have never been fat.

 

[Auntiejessi3]

@Auntiejessi3 he's propossing mixing that particular Kalmbach (essentially a high protein super vitamin mix) with the much cheaper corn to reduce its crude protein down to around 20% and otherwise control costs - it is, in fact, what that Kalmbach product is made for. Similar to feeding us breeead and water, sprinkled liberally with multivitamins and other suppliments - in theory.

@Rodrad as I said, I'm not a professional at this. I'm just a guy with wierd reading habits. You will want to reference this from USDA/NRCS. You will have to accept that the K product label doesn't give you all the information you need, as it lists only Lysine and Methionine, leaving off the other essential Amino Acids. Its "probably" all right. Maybe. Tryptophan isn't listed, and it (together with Lysine and Methionine) are the three limiting amino acids corn is deficient in.

Then you want to look for something offering the crude protein and amino acid profiles of dried corn. Sources vary, but you will likely find something in the neighborhood of 8.5% crude protein (CP), 0.265% Lysine (LY), 0.16% Methionine (ME), and 0.06% Tryptophan (TR).

Then you want to plug those numbers in based on your feed mix ratio, and compare to target.

Assuming you use the USDA/NRCS numbers for laying hens (which I believe to be quite low, actually, based on studies since the early 80s), your targets are 15% CP, 0.69% LY, 0.3% ME, 0.16% TR.

Kalmbach (for those who don't want to follow the link) is 44.0% CP, 2.75% LY, 0.75% ME, ?.xx TR

Adding three parts corn to one part Kalmbach -

CP = (8.5 + 8.5 + 8.5 + 44) / 4 = 17.375% CP
LY = (0.265 x3 + 2.75) / 4 = 0.886 % LY
ME =(0.16 x 3 + 0.75) / 4 = 0.308 % ME
TR = (0.06 x 3 + ?.xx) / 4 = ???? TR

Compare to the USDA targets, and you see your proposed mix exceeds the minimum crude protein and Lysine numbers, just meets the Methionine number, and may or may not meet the minimum Tryptophan levels needed for their health.

If you intended to use the same mix for broilers in their first weeks of life, your targets would be 23, 1.1, 0.5, 0.2 (respectively) - and you'd miss every one of them by wide margin. High Yield broilers (i.e Cornish X), you'd miss them even further.

The math is simple, the research is time consuming.

I recommend you either stick with complete feeds, or follow my example and do your research, rather than trusting the feeding of your hens entirely to the opinions of anonymous voices offering advice on the internet - opinions worth not more, and perhaps less, than you paid for them. Mixing raw ingredients to create a balanced feed (or correcting a known imbalanced feed like corn with suppliments) is beyond the skill and experience of most backyard owners. In spite of (or perhaps because of) my research, its something I would not try myself - I'm confident just enough in the state of my learning to show my sources, and my work.

Ok thank you @U_Stormcrow now I understand what he's doing.

 

[Rodrad]

Its 44% Protein, way too much by itself.
Its a supplement to mix with grains like corn, wheat, barley, rye and others.

I've never mixed my own feed, but I noticed that the supplement is a meal/mash form. Unless you grind up the corn they may eat the corn and leave the supplement in the feeder.
You could ferment the corn and mash so they eat everything.
Myself I like a Crumble or pellet type feed. GC

Thank you for a very good point. BTW, I have an old corn grinder which I can use. May need to hook it up to my drill so the grinding gets easier and faster.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Ok thank you @U_Stormcrow now I understand what he's doing.

Took me a minute, too, though I'd seen some of his posts and responded in another thread. I was in desperate need of coffee.



Hope the morning finds you well.

 

[Rodrad]

@Auntiejessi3 he's propossing mixing that particular Kalmbach (essentially a high protein super vitamin mix) with the much cheaper corn to reduce its crude protein down to around 20% and otherwise control costs - it is, in fact, what that Kalmbach product is made for. Similar to feeding us breeead and water, sprinkled liberally with multivitamins and other suppliments - in theory.

@Rodrad as I said, I'm not a professional at this. I'm just a guy with wierd reading habits. You will want to reference this from USDA/NRCS. You will have to accept that the K product label doesn't give you all the information you need, as it lists only Lysine and Methionine, leaving off the other essential Amino Acids. Its "probably" all right. Maybe. Tryptophan isn't listed, and it (together with Lysine and Methionine) are the three limiting amino acids corn is deficient in.

Then you want to look for something offering the crude protein and amino acid profiles of dried corn. Sources vary, but you will likely find something in the neighborhood of 8.5% crude protein (CP), 0.265% Lysine (LY), 0.16% Methionine (ME), and 0.06% Tryptophan (TR).

Then you want to plug those numbers in based on your feed mix ratio, and compare to target.

Assuming you use the USDA/NRCS numbers for laying hens (which I believe to be quite low, actually, based on studies since the early 80s), your targets are 15% CP, 0.69% LY, 0.3% ME, 0.16% TR.

Kalmbach (for those who don't want to follow the link) is 44.0% CP, 2.75% LY, 0.75% ME, ?.xx TR

Adding three parts corn to one part Kalmbach -

CP = (8.5 + 8.5 + 8.5 + 44) / 4 = 17.375% CP
LY = (0.265 x3 + 2.75) / 4 = 0.886 % LY
ME =(0.16 x 3 + 0.75) / 4 = 0.308 % ME
TR = (0.06 x 3 + ?.xx) / 4 = ???? TR

Compare to the USDA targets, and you see your proposed mix exceeds the minimum crude protein and Lysine numbers, just meets the Methionine number, and may or may not meet the minimum Tryptophan levels needed for their health.

If you intended to use the same mix for broilers in their first weeks of life, your targets would be 23, 1.1, 0.5, 0.2 (respectively) - and you'd miss every one of them by wide margin. High Yield broilers (i.e Cornish X), you'd miss them even further.

The math is simple, the research is time consuming.

I recommend you either stick with complete feeds, or follow my example and do your research, rather than trusting the feeding of your hens entirely to the opinions of anonymous voices offering advice on the internet - opinions worth not more, and perhaps less, than you paid for them. Mixing raw ingredients to create a balanced feed (or correcting a known imbalanced feed like corn with suppliments) is beyond the skill and experience of most backyard owners. In spite of (or perhaps because of) my research, its something I would not try myself - I'm confident just enough in the state of my learning to show my sources, and my work.

Wow, U_Stormcrow thank you for such great and very detailed input!.
You did even do the great math to find the final % of the all important ingredients In the homemade feed I plan to make. You also found the source of the USDA requirements of the nutrients for the laying hens. And you found for the average corn what are it’s main ingredient! Thank you!

Based on your great calculation it looks like that my feed would meet or exceed all main requirements except possibly for the Tryptophan.

I will check with a local dealer of Kalmbach feed and see if he can contact somebody at the company about the content of TR.

BTW, since you are so knowledgeable you may know how important is TR in layer’s feed.

thank you for the great response and your time making it.

I really appreciate it,
have a good day,
Rod

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Wow, U_Stormcrow thank you for such great and very detailed input!.
You did even do the great math to find the final % of the all important ingredients In the homemade feed I plan to make. You also found the source of the USDA requirements of the nutrients for the laying hens. And you found for the average corn what are it’s main ingredient! Thank you!

Based on your great calculation it looks like that my feed would meet or exceed all main requirements except possibly for the Tryptophan.

I will check with a local dealer of Kalmbach feed and see if he can contact somebody at the company about the content of TR.

BTW, since you are so knowledgeable you may know how important is TR in layer’s feed.

thank you for the great response and your time making it.

I really appreciate it,
have a good day,
Rod

You are on the right track. Check out the tryptophan levels in Oats [hint hint].

This is a handy reference (its from a pro barley source, but it offers numbers in the same ranges as many others, and happens to place them side by side, which is convenient)

 

[Rodrad]

I would expect problems if you mix the supplement with whole corn, because the chickens will pick out one part or another and waste the rest.

If you grind up the corn and mix them, it might work, but chickens tend to waste finely-ground food. If you grind the corn, mix them, and serve it wet the chickens will probably eat it all without too much wastage.

You could try putting the supplement and the corn in separate feeders, and see whether the chickens will eat the right balance by themselves. (Weigh the food when you put it in the feeders, then again a few days later.) If they will eat the right ratios, this would probably be easiest.

If that doesn't work, you could try serving the supplement as a wet mash (just add water.) Chickens will often consider that a treat and gobble it down. If you do that, serve the corn free-choice, and give them a measured amount of the supplement as mash each day. (How much supplement? Weigh how much corn they usually consume in a day, then weigh 1/3 that much supplement to make their mash. After you've got the amount figured out, just find the right size scoop to use for the supplement each day. The chickens will probably eat more corn in cold weather, but you can use the same amount of supplement all year long.)

Very good points how to prepare/give the chickens my home made feed.

thank you

 

[Rodrad]

You are on the right track. Check out the tryptophan levels in Oats [hint hint].

This is a handy reference (its from a pro barley source, but it offers numbers in the same ranges as many others, and happens to place them side by side, which is convenient)

Wow, that is a great handy reference of nutrients in grains!
it is amazing how much more protein and essential amino acids oats have over the corn.
Just protein and TR (16.9 and 0.234 g/100 g respectively) is so much more than these ingredients in corn (9.4 and only 0.07 g/100 g)!

Will check the price of oats. I am sure it is more than corn but I can use It half less. Or I may use just little bit of oats to bring TR in the mix to desired level.
I will also check the price of hard wheat. It has little less of TR ( 0.2 g/ 100 g) but it may be cheaper than oats.

thank you so much

 

[Rodrad]

I just found that 50 lb oats is only $7 more than corn ($15 vs $8). So I can use oats Instead of corn in order to bring TR to the required value (0.16%). However, such feed will cost more.

I contacted the dealer and he is checking with Kalmbach about the level of TR in their 44% poultry supplement.

I wonder how important is Tryptophan vs other amino acids in their feed, would there be any noticeable issues with chickens health and/or egg laying ability if they don’t get enough of TR.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I've not made specific study, however, a quick internet search turns up a few consistent reports in studies.

Basal rations used to examine amino-acid requirements usually do little more than slow down growth or maturation rates. However, we have now found that for the chick, depending somewhat on the strain used, tryptophan-deficient diets fed to chicks weighing less than 80–100 g completely stopped gain in weight and all, or nearly all, visible signs of subsequent maturation.(Paid article, I only read the summary)

Tryptophan in poultry nutrition: Impacts and mechanisms of action (Free Article, includes summations of prior studies, looks thorough)

Pathology and histology of dietary tryptophan deficiency in broiler chicks(small study, limited utility and focus)

Lessons learned regarding symptoms of tryptophan deficiency and excess from animal requirement studies (tl;dr: Small reductions in TR have significant effect, but even 10x "overfeeding" of TR was of limited detriment, so don't worry abotu "too much)