Choosing the correct food

[Rodrad]

then you eeduce everything else with it - including your amino acids, fat, carbs, vitamins, etc

But amino acids are also way above the average requirement. Not sure about carbs, fat and vitamins. Will try to figure out if possibly just 25% of K122 and 50% of oats may be a good mix.

As you know Kalmbach suggests 25% supplement with 75% corn. So if 50% of oats provides everything (and or more) than corn then the mix should be ok, I think.

Well, I calculated nutrients of 75 gm corn and of 50 gm oats:
CP - 7.1 gm/ 8.5 gm
LY - 0.2 gm/ 0.35 gm
ME - 0.15 gm/0.12 gm
TRP-0.05 gm/0.12 gm
CARB - 57 units/34 units
Fat - 9 gm/ 8 gm
Fiber- 1.8 gm / 5 gm

So, it looks like 50 gm oats would provide more protein and 3 main amino acids but would lag significantly in the total carbohydrates than 75 gm of corn. The source I found states that corn has 76% (units?) carbs vs 67% for oats. It would be about same in fat and will have more fiber.

I read that naked oats (hull-less) would provide about the same energy as corn and likely about the same fiber. But I don’t know if I can get it from a local feed&grain dealer and surely will be quite more expensive.

I already inquired about the price of wheat, but they don’t have it yet. I was told it would be somewhere in between corn and oats. Wheat is also quite higher in CP (13.7vs 9.4) as well as in all amino acids and especially in level of Tryptophan (LY 0.404 vs 0.265, ME 0.23 vs 0.197, TRP 0.195 vs 0.067) as compared to corn.
One important benefit of wheat over oats is that it has just about the same energy (carbohydrates) as corn, about same fiber. However, it has little less fat, 2% for wheat vs 4% for corn.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

That’s great.

What is your best understanding, about the feed you buy (and recently moved to non Soy and non GMO components) how much TRP is there?!
What your dealer says about it?

My dealer doesn't know, I need to reach out to the mill directly. I do know (from the ingredients list) that they are supplimenting the amino acids that I would normally expect to get via soy and oats via the addition of pig meat and bone meal, fish meal (among other suppliments) - essentially, dried ground up fish "bits". They are VERY high in crude protein, and have a rather balanced amino acid profile (as almost all animal proteins do) - the only question if how much of it they put into the bag, so I can figure out what it contributes to a 100g / 0.25# feed ration...

Ingredients:

Wheat Middlings, Porcine Meat and Bone Meal, Milo, Flaxseed, Calcium Carbonate, Menhaden Fish Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Diatomaceous Earth, Methionine, Black Oil Sunflower Seeds, Lysine, Salt, Threonine, Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Product, Choline Chloride, Tagetes Erecta Extract (Aztec Marigold), Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachiatum Fermentation Extract (Xylanase), Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Tribasic Copper Chloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Dehydrated Pichia Pastoris Fermentation Extract (Phytase), Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Menadione Nicotinamide Bisulfite (Source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite.

And if my main buyer didn't insist on this, I'd use something else - but I'm at $0.27 / lb, which isn't going to break the bank.

 

[Rodrad]

My dealer doesn't know, I need to reach out to the mill directly. I do know (from the ingredients list) that they are supplimenting the amino acids that I would normally expect to get via soy and oats via the addition of pig meat and bone meal, fish meal (among other suppliments) - essentially, dried ground up fish "bits". They are VERY high in crude protein, and have a rather balanced amino acid profile (as almost all animal proteins do) - the only question if how much of it they put into the bag, so I can figure out what it contributes to a 100g / 0.25# feed ration...

Ingredients:

Wheat Middlings, Porcine Meat and Bone Meal, Milo, Flaxseed, Calcium Carbonate, Menhaden Fish Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Diatomaceous Earth, Methionine, Black Oil Sunflower Seeds, Lysine, Salt, Threonine, Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Product, Choline Chloride, Tagetes Erecta Extract (Aztec Marigold), Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachiatum Fermentation Extract (Xylanase), Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Tribasic Copper Chloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Dehydrated Pichia Pastoris Fermentation Extract (Phytase), Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Menadione Nicotinamide Bisulfite (Source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite.

And if my main buyer didn't insist on this, I'd use something else - but I'm at $0.27 / lb, which isn't going to break the bank.

So, with various animal meat/meal most likely you have enough of all essential amino acids. How much CP do you have?

 

[Rodrad]

So, with various animal meat/meal most likely you have enough of all essential amino acids. How much CP do you have?

My dealer doesn't know, I need to reach out to the mill directly. I do know (from the ingredients list) that they are supplimenting the amino acids that I would normally expect to get via soy and oats via the addition of pig meat and bone meal, fish meal (among other suppliments) - essentially, dried ground up fish "bits". They are VERY high in crude protein, and have a rather balanced amino acid profile (as almost all animal proteins do) - the only question if how much of it they put into the bag, so I can figure out what it contributes to a 100g / 0.25# feed ration...

Ingredients:

Wheat Middlings, Porcine Meat and Bone Meal, Milo, Flaxseed, Calcium Carbonate, Menhaden Fish Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Diatomaceous Earth, Methionine, Black Oil Sunflower Seeds, Lysine, Salt, Threonine, Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Product, Choline Chloride, Tagetes Erecta Extract (Aztec Marigold), Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachiatum Fermentation Extract (Xylanase), Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Tribasic Copper Chloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Dehydrated Pichia Pastoris Fermentation Extract (Phytase), Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Menadione Nicotinamide Bisulfite (Source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite.

And if my main buyer didn't insist on this, I'd use something else - but I'm at $0.27 / lb, which isn't going to break the bank.

I just found, the wheat price is just tad more than corn, 50 lb for $8.50 or $0.17.

So, when I mix 25% of K122 plus 75% of wheat I get these nutrients:
CP- 21.3%
LY- 1.0%
ME- 0.36%
TRP-0.15%
The price of this mix is $11.9/50 lbs or just $0.24.

I will need to watch if they eat full amount of K122. Possibly initially I will give it in a separate feeder so I can observe if they consume the full amount. If not I will give them in the morning just K122 and then later in the day will give them wheat.

At this moment I am thinking to feed just 100 gm/hen/day.

Any comments?

Thanks

 

[U_Stormcrow]

No, 100 gm /hen /day is a good place to start, then modify intake based on observed consumption.

 

[Rodrad]

No, 100 gm /hen /day is a good place to start, then modify intake based on observed consumption.

If the consume full 100 gm, should I keep it the same or increase it?
i don’t know if you noticed, the fat content with wheat will be about 1/2 over what is with corn. Do you see any issue with that?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Not real concerned w/ the fat unless it goes much higher, there's a lot of dispute over appropriate fat content, I don't have a firm opinion, and haven't moved into that area of study deeply. Still working on understanding calciums and amino acids - mostly aminois right now.

Observe their consumption - if they eat all the feed up in a few minutes and mob you, jumping for more, you want to increase the ration. If they hang around for most of ten minutes or so eating, then wander off, you have either enough or too much. If there is still some left the next day when you come back to feed, cut the ration. If its gone, but after a few weeks of feeding, your manual inspection of the bird's keel bone suggests its over weight, cut the ration.

Basically, you are using the thumb rule as the starting point, then making small adjustments based on you flock's individual performance in your unique circumastances.

 

[Rodrad]

Not real concerned w/ the fat unless it goes much higher, there's a lot of dispute over appropriate fat content, I don't have a firm opinion, and haven't moved into that area of study deeply. Still working on understanding calciums and amino acids - mostly aminois right now.

Observe their consumption - if they eat all the feed up in a few minutes and mob you, jumping for more, you want to increase the ration. If they hang around for most of ten minutes or so eating, then wander off, you have either enough or too much. If there is still some left the next day when you come back to feed, cut the ration. If its gone, but after a few weeks of feeding, your manual inspection of the bird's keel bone suggests its over weight, cut the ration.

Basically, you are using the thumb rule as the starting point, then making small adjustments based on you flock's individual performance in your unique circumastances.

Great reply! Makes a lot sense. Thank you.

Well, just came to my mind. Would possibly mostly white content of wheat reduce the egg yoke color (since yellow corn, normally has a lot of yellow color)?!

In the meantime I found that yellow corn in the feed does help yoke to have more yellow/orange color because the corn has large amount of carotene.

my run is pretty large, 2500 square feet with lot of green plants growing, which should help.

I understand that the only nutritional advantage of darker yellow/orange color of yoke is that it has more carotene and thus vitamin A.

potentiall I can decide to go with 25% K122, 25% corn and 50% wheat.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Great reply! Makes a lot sense. Thank you.

Well, just came to my mind. Would possibly mostly white content of wheat reduce the egg yoke color (since yellow corn, normally has a lot of yellow color)?!

I know that what they eat affects feed color - I can see it in my own flocks eggs as the seasons change and things go into or out of bloom, seed, etc. I don't how the process works, except at very high level, and am not convinced that the color of the thing necessarily relates to the color effect on egg yolks. Many plants have high concentrations of certain chemicals that we can't actually see in the native/natural form because they are either cloaked by others, or await some chemical transformation to be revealed. ie all carrots are high in beta carroteen, but not all carrots are orange. Or cabbage and acids...

 

[NatJ]

am not convinced that the color of the thing necessarily relates to the color effect on egg yolks.

White corn is fairly common in animal feeds. I've read that chicken feed made with white corn produces paler yolks than chicken feed made with yellow corn. Corn can also come in red, purple, blue, and other colors, but I've never found anything about what effect those might have on yolk color.

I've also read that alfalfa (green) will also make nice yellow yolks.

So I would guess that pale-colored foods (white corn, wheat, oats, etc) might cause the egg yolks to be pale too. But for foods that do have color (yellow corn, green alfalfa, etc) I would try to find information on how that ingredient affects egg color, or else experiment to see.