Color genetics thread.

[BeachBumBiddies]

Hello!! I have a few questions regarding the making of Blue Partridge. My understanding is that you have to have a Partridge cock bird over Blue hens to get thi colors. Can you use a Blue cock over Partridge hens? Why or why not? Will the results will be different? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

 

[Wappoke]

Hello!! I have a few questions regarding the making of Blue Partridge. My understanding is that you have to have a Partridge cock bird over Blue hens to get thi colors. Can you use a Blue cock over Partridge hens? Why or why not? Will the results will be different? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

The information you have received may not be correct. Most likely It will take at least two generations of breeding to produce blue partridge. The partridge plumage color is an expression of at least three genes in the purebred or homozygous state within the birds. the genes are brown at the E locus, pattern and sex-linked gold. Blue birds normally carry extended black ( possibly birchen). melanotic and either gold or silver at the sex-linked silver locus. The blues could also carry the pattern gene.

If you cross a blue with a partridge, then the offspring will not have the correct genotype ( genes) to express the blue partridge.

It is possible to cross a blue with a partridge and get some blue partridge. The blue would have to have a specific genotype for this to occur but it is unlikely that the blue would have the genotype. Only a few breeds like the wyandotte carry the brown gene and are a black or blue plumage color. Birds that are black and carry brown have a white or silver under color.

The partridge plumage color is not expressed in males, it is only expressed in the female. Males are black breasted red or in the case of blue partridge blue breasted red.

I would always use a partridge female under a blue breasted red male. You do not know if the male is truly partridge but you can see if the female is partridge. You will only know if the male carries the genes for partridge if the female offspring are a good partridge plumage color.

 

[BeachBumBiddies]

Thanks! I think I understand.

 

[morbius18]

Both Marans and Ameraucana can carry recessive white, so it's possible that's where it's coming from, but your rooster also has it if it's expressing.

I was thinking about this more. Is there anything else that would cause the white sports to show up from just the rooster having it? The odds of my rooster carrying recessive white, 2 separate easter eggers and one black copper olive egger having it are REALLY REALLY low. These are 4 different birds from different breeders, and I must be really lucky to have all of them have the recessive white trait.

 

[junebuggena]

I was thinking about this more. Is there anything else that would cause the white sports to show up from just the rooster having it? The odds of my rooster carrying recessive white, 2 separate easter eggers and one black copper olive egger having it are REALLY REALLY low. These are 4 different birds from different breeders, and I must be really lucky to have all of them have the recessive white trait.

There are only two kinds of white, recessive white and dominant white. Dominant white does not hide. If a bird has it, it shows up. A single copy of the gene is all that is needed to produce a white bird. Recessive white requires two copies, one from each parent. If you are getting white chicks from non-white parents then it must be recessive white.

 

[Folly's place]

White Chanteclers; are they dominant or recessive white? Mary

 

[junebuggena]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/434646/white-chanteclers-recessive-or-dominant-white
Found this on another thread.

 

[CanuckBock]

White Chanteclers; are they dominant or recessive white? Mary

Know your breed and variety by knowing its history; the birds never lie about their origins.

Your answer to this question may be found in the APA Standard of Perfection...as per this section of BYC, you are expected to have read the Standard for your breed and variety so that you would know the history of the birds by sourcing that information in the SOP as this would fall under the category of "breeding to the standard."

The foundation breeds for the White Chantecler were chosen by the Professor of Poultry Husbandry for the Oka Agriculture Institute, Québec, Canada. In 1908, Bro Wilfrid chose to use White Leghorn females (dominant white) and White Wyandottes (recessive white) on both sides of the two F1 lines during the development of this composite breed. After APA recognition in 1921, the Frère diverged from the SOP Whites and later added White Rhode Island to form the honourable Oka strain of White Chanteclers.

True and proper Chanteclers are as with any International SOP recognized breed...all breeds being allowed to be any recognized variety. Brother Wilfrid is quoted as not caring about the feather colour of his birds. Being a most reasonable and judicious man, he was "aiming at something more practical than mere outside appearance to please the eye." A true advocate of Bro W's theories is one that does not focus too heavily on the phenotype past capturing the desired type of comb and wattles. Initial objectives should be as his were...foremost the creation of a practical vigorous tempered fowl for the common folk of Canada that provides an abundant supply of delicate meat and winter eggs. Many tout he chose white because it was easy and indeed...a self-white is oft seen like the self-blacks, to have the least colour faults and more often than not, the ones that win Best in Show which would hint they are surely, easier to achieve than say a decent laced pattern.

It would seem that Bro W's wishes may have not been focussed on the colour of this variety in particular, but many sidled up to comment on the pure whiteness of his efforts.

Mr. Bruno Wilson, Agricultural Editor of La Presse of Montreal:
White Chanteclers that are bred to the Standards from real blooded stocks are both recessive and dominant White as per the F2 crosses used by Bro W. You will also find that good and proper exhibition White Chants may contain further white based enhancers like blue dilution, barring, mottling, and silver. The simple rule that a good show prospect in a self-White is often based upon a Black bird rings true even here since eumelanin is far easier to supress expression than its counter part of phaeomelain pigments. When André Auclair salvaged what was left of Dr. Wilkinson's Albertans that were abandoned in Ontario, he saved these genetics by crossing his Oka Whites into them and used the progeny in the interm as home egg layers. He ended up with Partridge Chanteclers and the foundation birds for his line of Black Chanteclers. Making one ponder, did the black come from the White Oka's or the Partridge Albertans? We may never completely know.

Avoid autosomal red and gender linked red as it may show up to ruin an otherwise solid line of exhibition whites. By avoiding phaeomelanin, you will likely not be hit sideways like Bro W was 17 years later after his breed beginnings with buffy chested whites as he reported to the World Poultry Congress in 1927. Once again, knowing your breed's history may save you some future grief by avoiding a repeat on some of the mistakes already completed.

I was sent photos on a line of White Chanteclers that was imported from out East to Alberta that horrifically threw some "lavender" offspring in their F3 generation (obviously brought in as a hidden recessive in the foundation stocks). With all the negatives linked to Lavender/Pearlgrey like feather stop and chicks being inhibited from hatching properly (unable to turn decently to unzip their shells), I would avoid the addition of this potentially hidden recessive like the plague as the least desirable of the white enhancers. Sigrid states, "If this phenomenon is discovered, the animals with this "feathering stop" should be culled, or excluded from the breeding pen as this fault is very persistent and can ruin complete a line." There are "safe" lines of Lavenders but for all the help it would bring to an otherwise already pretty good self-White...there are many not willing to run that risk for a minor white enhancer with that potential type of baggage.

Chantecler Fancier - Mrs. Mary MacMorine of Napanee, Ontario.
Written August 1929 & published in the Canadian Poultry Review:

The Chantecler​

Like a sunbeam of the Mountains,
Breaking thro' its gorgeous height;
Like soft music, gently wafted
O'er Lake Como's foamy flight;
In thy robe of dazzling whiteness
Intermingled with the gold,
Crimson-crested like a warrior
In the days when knights were bold!
Thou art bred with the purple,
Where the Master holds His Court;
Thou are born mid' Prayer and Silence,
As an offering daily sought.
Thou didst come while men were fighting
O'er the seas, on distant shores;
Hearts were breaking, women weeping,
They had given all for All!
Then the Peace-bells ringing clearly:
Joy to Men! Goodwill! Goodwill!
And to these thy pinions leery,
Didst thou soar the World to win.
Many sing thy name and fame,
Unto "him" who made thy glory,
Brother M. Wilfrid is "his" name.
​

Best wishes in your endeavours with this superior and original chicken breed.

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[Folly's place]

I read the SOP and some breed history, and saw both dominant and recessive white birds used in their development. If odd colors can pop up, it does confuse my current dilemma. One of my broodies hatched a few chicks from a mixed flock; white Chantie cock and hens, also BC Marans cock, and Speckled Sussex and splash red Wyandotte hens. I was hoping that any pure white Chantie chicks would be easy to ID, but maybe not. They are eight days old, so comb type not yet obvious. A few are white, but not all. I'll call them all barnyard mixes rather than keep ??? breeders. Mary

 

[CanuckBock]

I read the SOP and some breed history, and saw both dominant and recessive white birds used in their development. If odd colors can pop up, it does confuse my current dilemma. One of my broodies hatched a few chicks from a mixed flock; white Chantie cock and hens, also BC Marans cock, and Speckled Sussex and splash red Wyandotte hens. I was hoping that any pure white Chantie chicks would be easy to ID, but maybe not. They are eight days old, so comb type not yet obvious. A few are white, but not all. I'll call them all barnyard mixes rather than keep ??? breeders. Mary

Too late to start a post to you but comb type is instantly obvious as day olds in the Chanteclers.

Our Red Chant Medusa - BYC's 2014 Cushion Comb Winner
Not jest another purdy stern gazing face, eh

​

I published an article in the Feather Fancier - Canada’s National Monthly Bird Publication since 1945 (written April 9th, 2010) specific to Chant combs and wattles (lotsa quotes from both SOPs for comparison of the worded description to the pictorial actual)...on my website as Article 1 - Combs & Wattles in the Chantecler Chicken

http://www.wolven.ca/higgins/ratranch/articles.htm

I will need to post photos of pea, rose and cushion combed day olds and define the differences for you so you may also KNOW a cushion instantly. Any confusion, you can ask and I will try to assist you...but in the meantime, some more comic relief!

Cushion comb - a comb so inviting other chooks will SIT UPON IT!

Since this divergence would be "off topic" on a colour genetics thread, I will invite you to my BYC Pear-A-Dice thread where I may be as off topic as I so choose it being mine and all, eh. LOL

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...iggins-rat-ranch-conservation-farm-in-alberta

I'll get a post together fur tomorrow...too late and had way too much fun already fur the one day! Hugs to you Mary...

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada