Color question..I'm not good with genetics so I'm wondering what will come of a Red bronze and Golde

r4eboxer

Crooked Creek Poultry
8 Years
Sep 20, 2011
909
72
133
Fairmont
I bred a Royal Palm Tom to a Bourbon Red hen and got Red Bronze Toms and Golden Narragansett Hens, so now if I breed the Red Bronze Tom to the Golden Narragansett will I get bronze? I'm not sure on all the alleles and genetics. Anyone out there with great color skills?
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Oh and just another question for the color genius, I just paired a blue slate tom with two Royal Palm hens, how many generations until I get blue palms? How do I need to select for the 2nd and 3rd generations? TIA
 

R2elk

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Oh and just another question for the color genius, I just paired a blue slate tom with two Royal Palm hens, how many generations until I get blue palms? How do I need to select for the 2nd and 3rd generations? TIA

I have only ever gone to the first generation of crossing my Blue Slate tom on my Royal Palm hens. All I have ever gotten in the first generation are either black or a blue slate looking turkey with an extra heavy dose of the black splashes and a few white feathers. The poults from this cross have been predominantly black chicks. I have not followed up with 2nd generation crosses of any kind so cannot tell whether or not you would succeed in finally getting a blue palm starting with this cross.
 

Lagerdogger

Songster
10 Years
Jun 30, 2010
923
35
184
Aitkin, MN
I bred a Royal Palm Tom to a Bourbon Red hen and got Red Bronze Toms and Golden Narragansett Hens, so now if I breed the Red Bronze Tom to the Golden Narragansett will I get bronze?

Oh and just another question for the color genius, I just paired a blue slate tom with two Royal Palm hens, how many generations until I get blue palms? How do I need to select for the 2nd and 3rd generations? TIA
I've done the same thing. Here's the pieces.

Royal Palm b1b1cgcgngngRR X Bourbon Red bbCCNGNGrr

b1 is black-wing bronze based which is recessive to b bronze based (with the barred wings). cg is the grey gene which is recessive to C not white. ng is narragansett recessive to NG "not Narragansett", and r is red, recessive to R not red, but a single red gene usually expresses itself as an intermediate color.

So when you cross them, using a RP tom, the tome offspring are bb1CcgNgngRr. The b dominates over teh b1, the C dominates the cg, the NG dominates the ng, and the Rr combination gives some red, so the bird is colored like a bbCCNgNgRr, which is Red Bronze. Notice that there are several recessive genes hidden. Hen offspring only carry one gene at the Ng location, and this gene comes from the tom. what you get is b1bCcgng--Rr. Because of the dominant/recessive character of the base gene and the white/grey genes (same as in the tom example), hens will look like bbCCng--Rr which is Golden narragansett.

So if you cross these, you get a mess.
The base color genes can be 1/4 b1b1 (black wing bronze base), 1/4 bb (bronze base), and 1/2 bb1 (looks bronze based but carrying a black-winged gene.
At the white gene location, you will get 1/4 CC (not white or grey), 1/4 cgcg (grey), and 1/4 Ccg (looks not white or grey but carries a grey gene).
At the Narragansett site, the toms will be 1/2 Ngng (not Narri), 1/2 ngng (Narri). Hens will be half Ng-- (not Narri) and 1.2 ng-- (Narri).
At the red site, 1/4 RR (not red), 1/4 rr (red), and 1/2 Rr (half red)

So you can get 3 base gene types (genotypes), 3 white/grey genotypes, 2 Narragansett genotypes, and 3 red genotypes for a total of 54 genotypes. However, in most cases, the combination of a dominant and a recessive gene looks like the recessive gene, so you only get 24 different colors of birds. A partial list includes:

b1b1CCNgngRR (black-winged bronze with a hidden Narri gene) b1b1CcgNgngRR (also looks BW Bronze)
b1b1cgcgNgngRR (sweetgrass with a hidden Narri gene)
b1b1cgcgngngRR Royal Palm
b1b1cgcgngngRr Calico
b1b1cgcgngngrr Red Palm
bbCCNgngRR Bronze
bbCCngngRR Narragansett
b1b1CCngngRR Black-winged Narragnasett
bbCCngngRr Golden Narragansett
b1b1CcgngngRr Golden Phoenix
bbCCNgngRR Bourbon Red

etc. etc. until all possible combination of all four genotypes are satisfied.



The blue slate is BBCCNgNgDd which is black-based (dominant to all other bases) with a single dominant D (blue) gene.

Crossed with a royal palm hen, Toms will be 1/2 Bb1CcgNgngDd and 1/2 Bb1CcgNgngdd. At the Narri genes, hens will be Ng-- or ng--. The ones that are Ng--Dd will look like blue slates, the ng--Dd will still look blue but will express the Narragansett genes, so will be a blue narragansett, if you will. The half with the Dd look blue and the half with the dd look mostly black as reported by R2elk.

If you cross a "blue Narragansett" hen back to a Royal Palm tom, one in 8 will be will be b1b1cgcgngngDd, which are blue palms. The short answer is you can get blue palms in 2 generations.

So there ya go! I think I got all that right!
 
Last edited:

r4eboxer

Crooked Creek Poultry
8 Years
Sep 20, 2011
909
72
133
Fairmont
I've done the same thing. Here's the pieces.

Royal Palm b1b1cgcgngngRR X Bourbon Red bbCCNGNGrr

b1 is black-wing bronze based which is recessive to b bronze based (with the barred wings). cg is the grey gene which is recessive to C not white. ng is narragansett recessive to NG "not Narragansett", and r is red, recessive to R not red, but a single red gene usually expresses itself as an intermediate color.

So when you cross them, using a RP tom, the tome offspring are bb1CcgNgngRr. The b dominates over teh b1, the C dominates the cg, the NG dominates the ng, and the Rr combination gives some red, so the bird is colored like a bbCCNgNgRr, which is Red Bronze. Notice that there are several recessive genes hidden. Hen offspring only carry one gene at the Ng location, and this gene comes from the tom. what you get is b1bCcgng--Rr. Because of the dominant/recessive character of the base gene and the white/grey genes (same as in the tom example), hens will look like bbCCng--Rr which is Golden narragansett.



So if you cross these, you get a mess.
The base color genes can be 1/4 b1b1 (black wing bronze base), 1/4 bb (bronze base), and 1/2 bb1 (looks bronze based but carrying a black-winged gene.
At the white gene location, you will get 1/4 CC (not white or grey), 1/4 cgcg (grey), and 1/4 Ccg (looks not white or grey but carries a grey gene).
At the Narragansett site, the toms will be 1/2 Ngng (not Narri), 1/2 ngng (Narri). Hens will be half Ng-- (not Narri) and 1.2 ng-- (Narri).
At the red site, 1/4 RR (not red), 1/4 rr (red), and 1/2 Rr (half red)

So you can get 3 base gene types (genotypes), 3 white/grey genotypes, 2 Narragansett genotypes, and 3 red genotypes for a total of 54 genotypes. However, in most cases, the combination of a dominant and a recessive gene looks like the recessive gene, so you only get 24 different colors of birds. A partial list includes:

b1b1CCNgngRR (black-winged bronze with a hidden Narri gene) b1b1CcgNgngRR (also looks BW Bronze)
b1b1cgcgNgngRR (sweetgrass with a hidden Narri gene)
b1b1cgcgngngRR Royal Palm
b1b1cgcgngngRr Calico
b1b1cgcgngngrr Red Palm
bbCCNgngRR Bronze
bbCCngngRR Narragansett
b1b1CCngngRR Black-winged Narragnasett
bbCCngngRr Golden Narragansett
b1b1CcgngngRr Golden Phoenix
bbCCNgngRR Bourbon Red

etc. etc. until all possible combination of all four genotypes are satisfied.



The blue slate is BBCCNgNgDd which is black-based (dominant to all other bases) with a single dominant D (blue) gene.

Crossed with a royal palm hen, Toms will be 1/2 Bb1CcgNgngDd and 1/2 Bb1CcgNgngdd. At the Narri genes, hens will be Ng-- or ng--. The ones that are Ng--Dd will look like blue slates, the ng--Dd will still look blue but will express the Narragansett genes, so will be a blue narragansett, if you will. The half with the Dd look blue and the half with the dd look mostly black as reported by R2elk.

If you cross a "blue Narragansett" hen back to a Royal Palm tom, one in 8 will be will be b1b1cgcgngngDd, which are blue palms. The short answer is you can get blue palms in 2 generations.

So there ya go! I think I got all that right!
WOW, NOW THAT'S AN ANSWER PHEW, I knew there was a genius among us!! The blue palms sound so much easier than the Reds and Palm cross. I know it is not going to be easy to recognize as poults.

I wonder how long it will take to breed out the other colors in the blue palms? I've got them together now and I"m going to gather eggs in about 10 days to set. I'm very excited about the Blue palm program. Do you think I could also develop a lavender from the blue/palm cross?

I had to come back here and say I am in awe at your knowledge of colors, I wish I knew what you do. So did you keep some of the poults you got from your Bourbon Red x Royal Palm cross and develop a breed or two. I love your signature quote about thinking chickens were fun until you got turkeys. My gosh how fun these projects are going to be. I can't wait to see what I get hatched out from my palm x blue cross. I really hope I get some blue narragansett, next year I'll be breeding them to my Palm tom. Right now My pairing is Blue Slate tom to Royal Palm hen. I also have a Royal Palm tom covering 2 Narragansett hens just because I pulled the Narragansett from the Blue Slate Tom because I wanted some blues and blacks but now I'm done with that project.
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I really hope I get some sweetgrass next year when I pair my Red Bronze and Golden Narris. Anyway to tell poult color at hatch for all those combos?
 
Last edited:

r4eboxer

Crooked Creek Poultry
8 Years
Sep 20, 2011
909
72
133
Fairmont
I have only ever gone to the first generation of crossing my Blue Slate tom on my Royal Palm hens. All I have ever gotten in the first generation are either black or a blue slate looking turkey with an extra heavy dose of the black splashes and a few white feathers. The poults from this cross have been predominantly black chicks. I have not followed up with 2nd generation crosses of any kind so cannot tell whether or not you would succeed in finally getting a blue palm starting with this cross.
Thanks for the reply, that helps. I am not crazy about blacks but I'll cull those out of my stock. I am hoping for blue Narri hens now that laggerdodger had clued me in. I'm going to need to set a lot of eggs I think this year.
 

R2elk

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Feb 24, 2013
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Natrona County, Wyoming
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Thanks for the reply, that helps. I am not crazy about blacks but I'll cull those out of my stock. I am hoping for blue Narri hens now that laggerdodger had clued me in. I'm going to need to set a lot of eggs I think this year.
One way that should eliminate the blacks is to use a self blue tom instead of a blue slate tom. I replaced my blue slate tom this year with a self blue tom in order to eliminate the black poults from the blue slate matings. It is going to be interesting to see if that also eliminates the black poults from the royal palm crosses.
 

r4eboxer

Crooked Creek Poultry
8 Years
Sep 20, 2011
909
72
133
Fairmont
One way that should eliminate the blacks is to use a self blue tom instead of a blue slate tom. I replaced my blue slate tom this year with a self blue tom in order to eliminate the black poults from the blue slate matings. It is going to be interesting to see if that also eliminates the black poults from the royal palm crosses.

I was thinking about that after your post, I wish I had a self blue but I don't. I'll keep my eyes open, maybe I'll find one locally. Are you breeding a second generation this year of the blue narri hen to a royal palm tom?
 

Lagerdogger

Songster
10 Years
Jun 30, 2010
923
35
184
Aitkin, MN
Meanwhile the simplest way to get blue palm turkeys is to buy them from Porter's.

http://www.porterturkeys.com/bluepalm.htm
Simple, yes, but not nearly as much fun. Also, Porter's cannot ship to some states (like MN) because of disease requirements. That's why I started playing with colors.

Back to r42eboxer, yes I still have some of the offspring from my original crosses or RP tom and BR hen. In fact, I think me tom is so nicely colored that i still have him. His only problem is that his beard never get long. The pictured birds are first or second generation of the PB X BR. The red bronze tom was very nicely colored. The hen behind him was Golden Narragansett. The tom facing away was a tough one to figure out. I never was sure what he was. I think he might have been an Oregon Grey with a red gene. The Royal Palm is an unrelated hen that i use to keep the birds from getting too related. I am also going to add some new unrelated birds this year. I can only keep two toms and a few hens over the winter, so my ability to breed outside the line is limited. I'm trying to get Golden Phoenix, which is essentially a black-winged golden Narragansett. Haven't gotten one yet, though. It may be in the incubator now!

That's one of the fun things about trying to develop colors on your own, every hatch is like a box of chocolates.

Recognizing the colors can be difficult. Royal Palms and calicos are yellow fuzz balls, and sweetgrass are yellow fuzz balls with a single stripe down their backs. Many of the rest look bronze-like, but vary in color from dark brown to almost yellow. It takes about 3 or 4 weeks to see which ones are showing Narragansett traits. But even then you have top wait to see who has black primaries (b1 genes) and who has barred (bronze based b genes).

Have fun!!

 

r4eboxer

Crooked Creek Poultry
8 Years
Sep 20, 2011
909
72
133
Fairmont
Simple, yes, but not nearly as much fun. Also, Porter's cannot ship to some states (like MN) because of disease requirements. That's why I started playing with colors.

Back to r42eboxer, yes I still have some of the offspring from my original crosses or RP tom and BR hen. In fact, I think me tom is so nicely colored that i still have him. His only problem is that his beard never get long. The pictured birds are first or second generation of the PB X BR. The red bronze tom was very nicely colored. The hen behind him was Golden Narragansett. The tom facing away was a tough one to figure out. I never was sure what he was. I think he might have been an Oregon Grey with a red gene. The Royal Palm is an unrelated hen that i use to keep the birds from getting too related. I am also going to add some new unrelated birds this year. I can only keep two toms and a few hens over the winter, so my ability to breed outside the line is limited. I'm trying to get Golden Phoenix, which is essentially a black-winged golden Narragansett. Haven't gotten one yet, though. It may be in the incubator now!

That's one of the fun things about trying to develop colors on your own, every hatch is like a box of chocolates.

Recognizing the colors can be difficult. Royal Palms and calicos are yellow fuzz balls, and sweetgrass are yellow fuzz balls with a single stripe down their backs. Many of the rest look bronze-like, but vary in color from dark brown to almost yellow. It takes about 3 or 4 weeks to see which ones are showing Narragansett traits. But even then you have top wait to see who has black primaries (b1 genes) and who has barred (bronze based b genes).

Have fun!!


Thanks again, I'm excited to see what turns up. I would like to have some sweetgrass so I'll be looking for those yellow poults with the stripe.

Thanks for the tip on Porters r2elk, I have been to his site many times and have emailed back and forth but I want to create my own blue palm, it's not fun just ordering one in.
 

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