Cooler ice only after process

[bag12day]

I am curious as which these are... so I know what symptoms to look for. .. the only food I have gotten sick from was restaurant food, and it sickened most people that ate there that day..... salmonella

Staph and Botulism are two off the top of my head that heat (normal cooking) will not kill.
There are others and before the Chemistry grammar police (My son has a degree in Chem/Biology in College and takes me to task frequently) come along I will make this distinction. Bacteria of kinds above release toxins and the bacteria itself can be killed but not before they leave their deathly calling card via those toxins and that cannot be rendered inert by normal heat.

 

[Molpet]

Staph and Botulism are two off the top of my head that heat (normal cooking) will not kill.
There are others and before the Chemistry grammar police (My son has a degree in Chem/Biology in College and takes me to task frequently) come along I will make this distinction. Bacteria of kinds above release toxins and the bacteria itself can be killed but not before they leave their deathly calling card via those toxins and that cannot be rendered inert by normal heat.

I was wondering if botulism was one. Thank you

 

[bag12day]

I was wondering if botulism was one. Thank you

Sure thing and for the record Salmonella is probably the most common foodborne illness in restaurants and its fairly easy to prevent by proper handling cross contamination mostly. I typed and re typed the first quote to you about killing your family because I didn't want to come off wrong or harsh or to be that guy but food safety is very important to me as you can imagine. Thanks for taking it in the context it was intended and as a side note being fairly new at posting here ( long time lurker) I absolutely love how the vast majority of people are very respectful and caring even if they disagree with you. Great place to belong.

 

[Molpet]

Sure thing and for the record Salmonella is probably the most common foodborne illness in restaurants and its fairly easy to prevent by proper handling cross contamination mostly. I typed and re typed the first quote to you about killing your family because I didn't want to come off wrong or harsh or to be that guy but food safety is very important to me as you can imagine. Thanks for taking it in the context it was intended and as a side note being fairly new at posting here ( long time lurker) I absolutely love how the vast majority of people are very respectful and caring even if they disagree with you. Great place to belong.

I am always glad to learn from people with information from their experience. I wouldn't want to keep giving people dangerous information about cooking killing bacteria when the toxins could still be a problem.
Although I must be lucky or have a good immune system. I have eaten things kept on the counter too long that I would not recommend to people. But I grew up with the power being out regularly and using the spring as a fridge like my grandparents. LOL ...they didn't have electricity until the 1950s

 

[Parront]

I like to think that our home-grown birds are a lot cleaner than what you get in the store. Feed-lots for cattle spread E. coli from the run-off water to crops like the Romaine lettuce here in AZ last year. One reason I want chickens is so I get control of the fertilizer in my garden. I will not buy bagged steer manure any more. When I was a kid we ate rare hamburger, not any more. The birds in the cooler that started this conversation are most likely beginning their cool-down with a far lower bacteria count than the birds in Safeway, with a lower chance of exposure to the industrial chicken plant bacteria. I guess what I am saying is the bottom line I would eat those 4 birds, treating them the same as I do birds from Safeway, which I assume to be contaminated with Salmonella. Cooked well, separate cutting boards and knives from other foods, basic kitchen food safety.

 

[bag12day]

I am always glad to learn from people with information from their experience. I wouldn't want to keep giving people dangerous information about cooking killing bacteria when the toxins could still be a problem.
Although I must be lucky or have a good immune system. I have eaten things kept on the counter too long that I would not recommend to people. But I grew up with the power being out regularly and using the spring as a fridge like my grandparents. LOL ...they didn't have electricity until the 1950s

I don't want to completely derail the thread but you hit the nail on the head with something akin to the corona discussion re "viral load" with bacteria as well. I guess it's what I was trying to point out to @Mike Conowingo with his original question. Will his 12 hour 47F chicken have more bacteria than a chicken immed chilled to 35F within 30 Mins absolutely, but not enough to be harmful to someone who isn't really immunocompromised.
I believe as @Parront stated We all start with chickens raised in a more "clean environment", process them carefully, and package them ourselves. Your body can stand a small or even a lot of exposure to most harmful bacteria before it becomes sickening or critical. Some are deadly in small doses like the Botulinum toxin but those are exceptions. That varies person to person and I, like you alluded to, would eat a leftover pork chop or fried catfish fillet at 5AM on the way to go work tobacco fields left on the counter from the night before. As a teenager prob not smart but prob not an issue either but as my 54 year old self maybe and I certainly wouldn't give that to my 1 year old granddaughter today... My wife is retired from 30 years in the pharmaceutical industry (science and laboratory side) so between her and my son they have learned me a few things LOL. My Business degrees didn't teach me a lot there! I am trying to edit and gonna post up some picts and video of us killing our 54 Kosher Kings and Red rangers several months ago in the meat bird forum for some lessons we learned and maybe can help some others.

 

[Parront]

I don't want to completely derail the thread but you hit the nail on the head with something akin to the corona discussion re "viral load" with bacteria as well. I guess it's what I was trying to point out to @Mike Conowingo with his original question. Will his 12 hour 47F chicken have more bacteria than a chicken immed chilled to 35F within 30 Mins absolutely, but not enough to be harmful to someone who isn't really immunocompromised.
I believe as @Parront stated We all start with chickens raised in a more "clean environment", process them carefully, and package them ourselves. Your body can stand a small or even a lot of exposure to most harmful bacteria before it becomes sickening or critical. Some are deadly in small doses like the Botulinum toxin but those are exceptions. That varies person to person and I, like you alluded to, would eat a leftover pork chop or fried catfish fillet at 5AM on the way to go work tobacco fields left on the counter from the night before. As a teenager prob not smart but prob not an issue either but as my 54 year old self maybe and I certainly wouldn't give that to my 1 year old granddaughter today... My wife is retired from 30 years in the pharmaceutical industry (science and laboratory side) so between her and my son they have learned me a few things LOL. My Business degrees didn't teach me a lot there! I am trying to edit and gonna post up some picts and video of us killing our 54 Kosher Kings and Red rangers several months ago in the meat bird forum for some lessons we learned and maybe can help some others.

Great, I look forward to reading about your Kosher Kings.
I have a Biology background, and like to read up on it still. I think info about food safety is what the original poster wanted. As you point out, this is relative. Under-cooked hamburger at a fast-food restaurant has been deadly to some one-year-olds, while the rest of the family was fine. Our own birds, processed where they lived at our houses and only exposed to us, share our bacteria and we are already exposed to theirs, too. The CDC will tell you to not let your under 5 year old child have contact with the chickens. I was never successful with that! We can not raise our families in a bacteria-free bubble. Washing hands after chickens, YES! Clean processing area, clean meat in clean cooler cooled A.S.A.P. = YES. I confess, I learned from my Grand-parents before taking Biology in college. And was much younger, in an age prior to E. coli 157 and Mad Cow Disease. (Which by the way, is one of those nasties that can not be killed by cooking). Now, in my mid 60's and retired to take up chickens again, I am more aware and careful than I was as a younger person. If I were the owner of the 4 birds, I would eat them. In my past butchering, we never even used a thermomerter! I learned from the old folks to salt the ice for cold temps. He is beginning with a lot more knowledge than I had, he knew to take the temp, and ask for more info. I hope to contribute -- this is a great place for learning!

 

[Compost King]

You've run into an issue that comes with doing a bunch at a time. It takes time to cool them and time to freeze them. In the meantime they can warm a fridge or freezer up above where it should be. I think you are OK but treat it as a learning curve. Maybe add some water next time, spread them out into more coolers, or maybe stir them up after a few hours. Not sure what would work best for you. But lots of ice. Much ice.

I also want to add the suggestion of processing the same flock of birds in intervals. You may not harvest the same amount of meat but you could end up spending less on feed. Start out by processing a Cornish Game Hen sized bird for every member of the family. Then every week process as many as you can handle. Every week will bring a larger bird. I would not go passed week 10. I actually rarely go beyond week 7.

This may not work for everyone but it works for me and that's what I am doing. Just bringing this up to let people know of alternative solutions.

 

[Mike Conowingo]

Wow. We have a good discussion going on and I am learning alot. This was a lesson learned that wont be forgotten. As food safety is incredibly important to me. I dont want to make anyone sick or worse... Any bird I cook at home I handle as though they all have some sort of bacteria and do not cross contaminate between knifes or cutting boards. Also I wash my hands more like I am doing surgery when handling any poultry. As I get older I am more concerned with cleanliness and safe food handling then when I was younger. We all learn with age.

To the cook..I did cook the biggest bird last night. So far everyone is fine and no one is sick. That's a huge relief. I also just ate some for lunch. It was delicious too. I did cook it slightly longer. Not sure it made a difference after reading some of the post above. But in my mind I felt a little better. It was juicy with no pink juice only clear and bones slid out. I spatchcock the bird and grilled breast up.

These are all raised for my freezer only , so nothing is being sold or given away. Maybe next time

I thought 3 hours for 20 birds was pretty good too. We stayed busy and both had our jobs and worked very efficiently. We set up everything the night before and walked through the process a couple times so nothing would be overlooked (didnt work as I forgot to water to 50lbs of ice).Then in the morning I started the water as I think my scalding pot is about 20 gal. (I'll have to double check) it took about 30 mins to get the water to temp. We used a plucker as well and boy did that really make quick work. I definitely want to try again during fall when it will be a little cooler weather. * This time I will remember the water too. I like the salt idea as well , adding a little salt to the water. I watch a video from a utube they use a little vinegar in their water , any thoughts on this?


Thanks everyone for any insight and advice offered here and throughout the site. This place is a wealth of knowledge and the members here are awesome.

 

[bag12day]

I also want to add the suggestion of processing the same flock of birds in intervals. You may not harvest the same amount of meat but you could end up spending less on feed. Start out by processing a Cornish Game Hen sized bird for every member of the family. Then every week process as many as you can handle. Every week will bring a larger bird. I would not go passed week 10. I actually rarely go beyond week 7.

This may not work for everyone but it works for me and that's what I am doing. Just bringing this up to let people know of alternative solutions.

That's a good idea and I can see the value in that as well depending on limited space how hard a worker you are lol. I am really lazy! In my eyes it takes just as much effort to clean my scald pot, Defeatherer, stainless tables, knives, scissors dip pots and coolers after doing 50+ birds as it does to do 5. Now we have killed an occasional Hen or Rooster causing problems but just skinned them out inside on my cutting boards. I have the same outlook when it comes to putting up pastured pigs. I would rather spend all day 10 hours doing a years worth of butchery than 3 hours 5 times a year. Just me but I have commercial refrigeration and freezer to get stuff into in bunches.