Coop & Run : A few questions

[LindaN]

I think the reason Pat suggested reinforcing the t-posts is because unless the posts are really firmly anchored in the ground they can be knocked down by a determined predator of any decent size (like a large dog).

Sure, farmers use t-posts with wire for cattle, but cattle are big animals and can be hurt/killed by only a few really big predators. Little chickens are more easily attacked by much smaller animals.

If you can't sink posts, maybe you can run some electric fence wire to deter predators, at least.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
No, I am not talking about those posts at all.

What I mean (and what, from your additional description, sounds to me like the ONLY safe and structurally-sound option I can think of) is to buy the pre-made chainlink run panels. Assuming the coop wall will be one wall of the run, you will need 3 panels -- they're generally 6' high, and mine are 12' long but I believe you can find other lengths too. You know the ones I mean? They are like already framed out in metal pipe, so each panel is a rigid structure in and of itself. Get 3, attach them at 2 corners and to the coop wall, and put in t-posts at the corners to affix them to the ground.

Dog runs are out of the question as well, you just cannot find them used for cheap here, it's not possible, people hang onto them.. and buying one from TSC is landing you $200-up a panel!

Chick-a-dee, I know we've been through this before so I will try to be brief, but I just have to remind you ...

I live only a little over two hours away from you (realio trulio. I timed it last time I drove past Kingston. *Four* hours gets me well into NY State, around Watertown). It is really not so difficult to find used kennel panels for sale in Ontario. (Not what I'd consider difficult, anyhow). Yes, you have to look around for a while, but I see them advertised fairly frequently, and at farm-type auctions, in various places between Barrie and the Kawarthas and Cobourg. I realize that only the eastern part of this area is relevant to you, but this area is not likely to be unique.

Sure, it may well be that there are fewer out your way, but it would only cost sixty or eighty bucks to rent/gas a truck and go pick panels up from somewhere else. Sheesh, even if you bought the panels full-retail brand spankin' new from TSC or Home Depot or wherever, that's still not THAT expensive for a run-- remember, you would have to buy NOTHING else besides two measly t-posts ($4 each at farm auction, or free if you have some unused ones on the property). Whereas, otherwise you have to buy a buncha wire mesh, plus something to stiffen the top at *least*.

The thing is:

Farmers use t-posts to keep their cattle in, and they use a high tensile paige wire fencing... why wouldn't that keep chickens in?

Sorry, chick-a-dee, they DO NOT string high tensile fence on t-posts. No way! LOL

T-posts are often used as some of the line posts for that kind of fence, but that's absolutely NOT what is holding the fence up. Next time you are driving around, take a closer look. The corners are HEAVY cedar posts, well-braced diagonally against adjacent cedar posts, and usually every 2nd or 3rd line post is a cedar post too. (the ones that don't have some wooden line posts are the ones you generally can't see very well b/c they've fallen over and disappeared into the long grass... NOT a coincidence

)

T-posts just have relatively little resistance to tipping over, no matter how deep you drive them. This makes them suck badly as corner posts (even just for electric rope horse fences, although you can get away with 'em that way as long as you don't mind them very very slowly keeling over). With anything that imposes more stress on the corner -- like a long, or tight, or high-wind-resistance fence -- they will just go right over within weeks or months. Requiring you to rip the entire darn thing out of the ground, which is TOUGH, and re-do it.

Attaching the tops together all along the run will provide a *little* extra stability, but not frankly all that much. And remember, your run fence a) catches a lot of wind, and b) has to be STRONG so that when coyotes stand up against it, or raccoons climb over it, it does not sag over and stay there. (I know your chickens will be in at night, but it will be very annoying to have predators damage the run fence so that you have to rebuild it. Best to do it right the first time).

I thought of another alternative for you, btw. If you do not want to spend the money upfront on kennel panels, BUILD YOUR OWN. I'd use the heaviest lumber that's feasible -- at least 2x6's for the horizontal members, and 4x4's for the corners and probably for one 'line post' per panel as well. Personally I'd use p.t. for most if not all of it. Bolt them together securely into a 5-6' by 10' frame (make 3 of these). If you use 1 or 2" welded wire mesh you could probably get by without diagonal braces; otherwise, brace diagonally. Then staple or screw some strong wire mesh on -- personally I would not use anything bigger than 2x4" mesh. You *could* use chainlink, if you have a 'free' source, but it will be disproportionately annoying to work with and get installed properly and I really wouldn't bother. Then affix the panels together into a run, using t-posts at the corners to make it keep its shape and to encourage it to stay attached to the ground.

Or, don't, it's a free country. I'm trying to help you out, though.

Good luck,

Pat​

 

[MissBHaven]

Lots of people are using those storage tents, we call them a pop up garage. The plastic/ vinal covers dont last long, but the frames still hold up pretty good, they are metal poles usually. We saw one in a neighbors yard (stranger by the way) stopped in and asked if we could buy it, we bought a 12 x 20 frame for $20.00. Then we wrapped it in chicken wire, and anchored it with garden stakes. The dumps are full of these frames too, once the cover rips, or mildews, people throw them away....

 

[Chick_a_dee]

I'm sorry Pat, I know what you're saying, I understand... but we just cannot find the dog run panels anywhere, as we've been looking for ages for our own dogs! .. I would have preferred them, but again very hard to find what you want and need. We have older fencing sitting outside our fence line in the pasture, and it's all high tensile with huge bracing corners and about 10 t=posts between wood posts, it's still standing and we'd have used it for horses except it's a bit narley in places. I'm going to TRY to sink some corner posts for it, I have a hand auger and if I can sink them two feet which is just below our frostline here, then I can put some cement in to anchor them better and I'll use my coop as the other corners and put t's between those corners as is done in most farm fencing. We WILL be skirting it with electric fencing I forgot to mention this, which I suppose makes a large difference... I was looking at the mesh electric fencing, our local co-op has some in an opened box for $165 that would skirt the whole run. I can also run electric off some step-in posts.

Our girls will not be out during the night, and will only be out during the day when we are there... which is most often since we don't have a lot of time to spend off the farm, all the front and upstairs front and side windows have the coop and run in view, and the only predators I'm worried about during the day are eagles and a pesky skunk that likes to smell up the place.

I'll keep looking for dog panels, and actually I really like the idea of the pop-up garage, I was looking at the type of metal frame used for greenhouses but the only ones I've been able to find are huge, and I want a relatively small one.

 

[Chick_a_dee]

I thought of another alternative for you, btw. If you do not want to spend the money upfront on kennel panels, BUILD YOUR OWN. I'd use the heaviest lumber that's feasible -- at least 2x6's for the horizontal members, and 4x4's for the corners and probably for one 'line post' per panel as well. Personally I'd use p.t. for most if not all of it. Bolt them together securely into a 5-6' by 10' frame (make 3 of these). If you use 1 or 2" welded wire mesh you could probably get by without diagonal braces; otherwise, brace diagonally. Then staple or screw some strong wire mesh on -- personally I would not use anything bigger than 2x4" mesh. You *could* use chainlink, if you have a 'free' source, but it will be disproportionately annoying to work with and get installed properly and I really wouldn't bother. Then affix the panels together into a run, using t-posts at the corners to make it keep its shape and to encourage it to stay attached to the ground.

Or, don't, it's a free country. I'm trying to help you out, though.

Good luck,

I really like this idea, it'd be easy to do and I may be able to sink corner posts as I said below... it all depends on whether or not I can dig down 2 feet, otherwise its all in vain because they're get lifted. The kennel wire we were looking at is 2x2" by 6ft I believe, but it might be shorter... It's that or the welded 2x2" wire from TSC, a bit more expensive but 50ft would do the whole run easily with extra to spare.

Edited to add: The old farm fencing on our property, I'd like to add... is braced all over the place with huge cedar posts, all of which are on their sides, the only things still standing straight and perfect like the day they were pounded in (at least 30 years ago) are the t-posts.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
The big advantage of kennel panels or the 'homemade wood-and-wire kennel panel mimics' I described is that it *doesn't* really matter if your corners heave a bit. The reason is, the fence is basically self-supporting without them and needn't be attached totally firmly to the corner t's.

The purpose of the corner t-posts is mainly just to keep the whole thing square instead of getting pushed in like a parallelogram. So that's just anchoring against horizontal stresses, for which a little frostheave is not going to be an issue. To some extent the t-posts will also discourage critters from pulling the lower frame of the fence up off the ground... BUT if you have a good strong 2-3' welded wire skirt laying on the ground, that's not going to happen TOO much anyhow.

If it were me, I would attach the corners of the fence panels to the t-posts in such a way that the t-posts can heave a bit without taking the fence panels with them. That is, have some 'play' in the connection. Then just figure on going out, come springtime, and whacking each tpost a coupla times with a sledge to set it back down as needed. T-posts don't really heave very much anyhow, IME.

, the only things still standing straight and perfect like the day they were pounded in (at least 30 years ago) are the t-posts.

Chick-a-dee, that's because theyr'e LINE posts, not corner posts. Your chicken run, OTOH, will consist almost entirely of corners. T-posts stink as corners (you can run diagonal braces similar to the way you would on cedar corner posts, but the ones I've seen braced that way tend to pop loose rather frequently). Corners are a whole different kettle of fish than line posts.

Have fun,

Pat​

 

[Chick_a_dee]

I'm going to attempt to sink some 4x4 pressure treated and concrete them in, under the frost line and they shouldn't heave, especially since we don't get a lot of frost anyway. I like them because I can screw the panels to the corners, and one the one side we're thinking of making the whole side as a large door, on hinges with a lock and everything so we can pull the tractor and trailer in to clean the coop and run.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
HUH ????????


Pat

 

[Chick_a_dee]

lol we don't... our frost line is only 2ft, rather than the 4ft we had to dig down by the lakeshore.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Sorry Chick-a-dee but this is seriously incorrect. Unless you are comparing different municipal code requirements; or municipal code requirements in Oshawa or wherever, versus local custom or word-of-mouth in Stirling? As opposed to actual frost depths.

Actual frost penetration in Oshawa/Bowmanville/Toronto/etc is not anything like 4' in a normal year -- for instance, see http://www.urecon.com/english/CDRom/P232.html . Mind, this does not take into account snow cover, but snow cover will merely decrease frost penetration from the values indicated. (They are not absolutely exact, as soil type and exposure and so forth will also matter, but they are regarded by geologists and being quite usefully close.) Building codes, OTOH, typically call for things to be put well below actual frost depth, and can vary with municipal philosophy.

Also, while indeed *most* places in the southern part of Ontario do not empirically freeze more than ~2' deep in a typical winter, that is not necessarily the same thing as "how deep your foundations/posts/waterlines/etc should be laid". Not all years are typical, in temperature or in snowfall. Furthermore, things freeze extra deep in areas where snow cover is likely to get compressed or plowed away (under driveways, in livestock areas, along frequently-used paths, snowmobile trails, etc). (Ask me about the SE corner post of my run-in shed sometime, around which the horses stomp the snow to ice every winter...

)

You can still, of course, if you wish, sink your posts only 2 or 2-1/2' deep. But, remember that you were just tellin' me, a coupla posts above, about all those cattywhompus crooked fenceposts on your property. It is probably not all due to rot.

People who only want to do the job ONCE, generally put fenceposts 3'+ deep in this part of the world, which in terms of winter temperatures and snow is basically the same as your part of the world. (Yes, it gets warmer here than near the lakeshore in the summer, but just wait til winter, it works the other way around).

Just makin' the information available,

Pat