Coughing Call Duck

Discussion in 'Emergencies / Diseases / Injuries and Cures' started by onesweetfarm, Sep 30, 2015.

  1. onesweetfarm

    onesweetfarm Out Of The Brooder

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    I have read thread after thread and have narrowed down my duck's issue to two possible illnesses...
    Young call ducks sounding as if they have a case of the hiccups. Eating, drinking, and moving around just fine until today, appear to be gasping for air. Eyes, nose, and the general appearance of the birds seems just fine. The coughing started two days ago at feeding time but did not become what I feel is serious until today. I treated them all with ivomec injectable .1%, orally with eyedropper one drop as they are small. I have never had an issue with gapeworm but the symptoms are very similar. HOWEVER, I live in New England and the weather here as been less than desirable for poultry. We were at 80 degree temps that shot down to the 40's and now being hit with a Nor'easter that has the temps back up as well as the humidity and very wet. I cannot rule out pneumonia as a possible illness. I do have Tylan 50 and I am on the fence if I should treat the calls with the tylan today or wait. I hate to put it off and lose a bird.
    Any thoughts? Is it safe to treat with ivomec and tylan together? Thank you in advance
     
  2. Amiga

    Amiga Overrun with Runners Premium Member

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    Hi!

    Could you post over on the Duck Forum, please? If you already have, I apologize for missing this there. We have a number of Call Duck folks there.

    Any way you might get a video for us to see and listen to?
     
  3. JadeComputerGal

    JadeComputerGal Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I hadn't seen it, and the easy thing to say is get them to a vet, so I really would say get them to a vet if you can.

    Vets aren't an option for many people because of either lack of availability or lack of funds to pay what might be high vet costs, so if I could ask some questions/make comments...
    • How old and what genders are the birds? It sounds like you might have more than the two that are ill. Do the others seem okay?
    • Have you brought them inside or otherwise in good light to look at their eyes, bills and faces? You want to see if there is any amount of redness around either eye, see if there is swelling on the face between the base of the bill and the eyes, and see if there's any discharge from the nares. That can be very hard to tell unless you clean off the bill with some warm water and watch what happens.
    • Put your fingers on their backs and compress their chests with your thumbs very gently to see if that produces anything that sounds like wheezing from the chest. The symptoms you describe could mean a ton of things, but none of them are things that can be safely ignored.
    • I'm not a proponent of giving antibiotics unless I know exactly what I'm dealing with or unless I'm desperate. I would not recommend Tylan as a first option because it's a very narrow-spectrum antibiotic. @casportpony is very, very good with recommendations for meds and in what situations you'd use them. I'm not at her level yet. I just hate antibiotics because they kill good bacteria as well as bad and can cause bacterial resistance to them in the future when you really need them.
    • I have heard that some vets will do a fecal even if they aren't avian vets. That's not the case with any of mine, but it wouldn't hurt for you to check if you have another vet you use. Two ladies have posted on here recently that their regular vets who don't treat birds were willing to do the fecal only for a nominal fee.

    Really hoping your babies make it through this okay, so please keep us posted.
     
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  4. onesweetfarm

    onesweetfarm Out Of The Brooder

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    I must have missed the duck forum, I will get the video tomorrow. 2 out of 10 ducks, and the youngest at 4 months old, are the ones having the issue. Spent the day separating and deworming. Seems to be a decrease in cough, fingers crossed tomorrow is a better day. I had a friend help me examine them all, still appear healthy otherwise. No facial swelling, clear eyes and noses, no apparent wheezing. Thank you for your input. If no improvement by tomorrow I will have to rethink course of treatment.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
  5. casportpony

    casportpony Team Tube Feeding Captain & Poop Inspector General Premium Member

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    @onesweetfarm , according to Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook, there are no drug interactions between Tylan (tylosin) and ivermectin.

    There's lots of conflicting info on the web about how effective ivermectin is as a poultry wormer. I'm one of the people that believe it's no longer an effective poultry wormer and can point you to many threads, studies and necropsy pictures to back it up. Good news is that it's harmless when the correct amount is given.

    What ivermectin do you have? Is it the cattle stuff?

    According to another book I have, treatment for gapeworm is Safeguard or Panacur for several days.

    -Kathy
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
  6. onesweetfarm

    onesweetfarm Out Of The Brooder

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    I used the ivomec cattle injectable but dosed them orally. I have never used ivermectin to deworm poultry before, this is a first. I have fenbendazole drench for goats as well. I am at a loss as to if I attempt to treat for worms or if I attempt to treat for respiratory infection. They are really not showing any signs other than occasional cough and/or gasping as if choking. I am not sure that there is an avian vet in my area, I will have to look into it. I thought I would reach out to the BYC community first.
     
  7. Amiga

    Amiga Overrun with Runners Premium Member

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    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
  8. JadeComputerGal

    JadeComputerGal Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Here are some vet links:
    http://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803
    http://www.majesticwaterfowl.org/vetfinder.htm

    I'm with Kathy on the Ivermectin. Some things she's said on BYC led me to look into that out of interest about the best deworming drugs, and most of what I've found says it's not the best dewormer for a broad spectrum of dewormer for ducks. It's not all all that I don't trust what she says. I just do a lot of reading on things.
     
  9. casportpony

    casportpony Team Tube Feeding Captain & Poop Inspector General Premium Member

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    , how are they today?

    Ivermectin is very safe, but it's very hard to treat a small duck, chicken, etc. with the cattle version of ivermectin. The most commonly used dose is 200 micrograms per kilogram, but I have seen references that say to use 400 micrograms per kilogram.

    100 micrograms = 0.1mg

    What does that mean? It means this:
    At 200 microgram/kg (0.2mg/kg) using the cattle product, a one pound bird should get 0.01ml
    Math for that looks like this - 1 / 2.2 x .2 / 10 = 0.009 ml (round up to 0.01ml).

    The 400 microgram (0.4mg) dose for a one bird will be twice that - 0.02ml
    Math for that looks like this - 1 / 2.2 x .4 / 10 = 0.018 ml (round up to 0.02ml).

    If you gave more than that, don't worry too much, 'cause there are many people on BYC that give way more than that. Not saying it's okay to give that much, just saying it's probably safe.

    Even though you already gave ivermectin you can give Safeguard. Let me know if you want dosing info. My experience with gapeworms is limited to one chicken that was open mouth breathing and looking like she was gonna die, but gave her Safeguard for five days and she recovered.

    My experience with treating respiratory infections is limited to one with a sinus infection and one with what sounded like fluid in his lungs. Neither were contagious (no other sick birds) and both recovered with Baytril (enrofloxacin).

    A drug like Tylan is used to treat mycoplasma and necrotic enteritis, so I'm not sure it's the right drug to try... Probably best to consult a vet.

    Hope this helps.
    Kathy
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  10. casportpony

    casportpony Team Tube Feeding Captain & Poop Inspector General Premium Member

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    Here are two of the studies I mentioned earlier:


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9269125

    Anthelmintic efficacy of ivermectin against Syngamus trachea and Capillaria spp. in pheasant.

    Lamka J1, Svobodová V, Slézková J.
    Author information


    Abstract

    Ivermectin (IVM) was perorally administered in dosage schemes 1 x 0.8 mg/kg of body weight (b.w.), 1 x 1.6 mg/kg h.w., 3 x 0.8 mg/kg b.w., and 3 x 1.6 mg/kg b.w. to pheasants infected by Syngamus trachea and Capillaria spp. The samples of faeces were coprologically examined. The clinical state of pheasant was controlled. In all of the used therapeutical schemes the helminthostatic or partially helminthocide effect against adults of worms was reached. The clinical signs of helmithoses were reduced only. IVM in tested doses is not possible to recommend as an effective drug of pheasant syngamosis and capillariosis.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2816174
    Ivermectin as a bird anthelmintic--trials with naturally infected domestic fowl.

    Oksanen A, Nikander S.
    Abstract

    To evaluate the use of ivermectin as a bird anthelmintic, 29 White Leghorn hens naturally infected with Ascaridia spp., Heterakis spp. and Capillaria spp. were treated with 0.2, 2 or 6 mg/kg intramuscularly or 0.2 or 0.8 mg/kg orally. Faecal samples were collected before treatment and at autopsy, 2, 6, or 16 days after treatment, when the intestines were also examined for helminths. None of the treatments gave satisfactory anthelmintic results.

    Syngamus trachea = gapeworm

    Capillaria spp = capillary worm

    Ascaridia spp = large roundworm

    Heterakis spp = cecal worm





    -Kathy
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
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