Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[blackbirds13]

Originally Posted by ChicKat

This photo was the first I ever saw of a cream legbar hen. Thus it shaped my mental-image of the hens. One thing I didn't like about it was the length of the legs:

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=cream+legbar+hens&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1430&bih=766&tbm=isch&tbnid=okJd5ZSNffAX2M:&imgrefurl=http://greenfirefarms.com/store/category/chickens/cream-legbar/&docid=f-e1uFMcbnb2NM&imgurl=http://greenfirefarms.com/wp-content/gallery/cream-legbar/legbar-hen.jpg&w=574&h=600&ei=bWmOUILoH8rhigKnjYGIDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=395&vpy=283&dur=3312&hovh=230&hovw=220&tx=142&ty=122&sig=109980060349503097093&page=1&tbnh=140&tbnw=152&start=0&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0,i:92

Here is a photo of "Robin" - this is the photo in the breeds section of www.Eggzy.net. The excellent people who keep eggzy up added Cream Legbars to the breed section when I requested a new egg color be added, along with the ability to add cream legbar eggs to the tally - so cream legbar needed to be added to the drop down menu of the eggs section.




The same photo is also used in the BYC listing where I entered cream legbar to end my frustration when I went to that database...and searched cream legbars. BTW if you click on the term "product" at the top of the column it will resort the database by alphabetical order...easer to find the breed you are looking for, than going by the popularity of the breed IMO.
It is designed to point to the legbar entry. Silverfox from the UK had already set up a section on legbars, and the info is there. --

So here are some photos of Robin.


Shape - Female

Comb: Single; large, deeply and evenly serrated with five to seven spikes, erect or dropping gracefully to the side without obscuring the eyes. (note: Leghorns describe their ideal comb as having the first point stand erect, would this be a good description for an ideal CL comb?). [Chickat]I wonder why we would add it- since we aren't talking Leghorns... I would leave this part of the SOP as is. Although Lebhorns are in their back ground...they aren't Leghorns... JMO (babymakes6)Her comb looks to be twisted or folded at the bottom-would that be a fault? The top of her comb "drops gracefully to the side." blackbirds13 I'd leave the SOP as is for this. If we need to be more specific on the spikes then we should address that. Like with the boys someone suggested we go for something in between like 6.

Beak: Stout, point clear of the front of the comb, slightly curved. [chickat], yes (babymakes6)yes blackbirds13 I'd leave the SOP as is for this - yes

Face: Smooth (not sure how to “nail” this, is it smooth or finely textured, clean cut, free from wrinkles, how do you describe what you see).[chickat] smooth - yes I am also unsure of this one-what all is considered the "face?" blackbirds13 I'd leave the SOP as is for this. I am not sure either but for my purposes I'm looking at the red area without feathers.




Eyes: Large, bright, and prominent. Round in appearance. [chickat] - yes, Perhaps Robin has 'dreamy eyes' - IMO her face is just about the most serene and beautiful one I have seen on a cream legbar hen. -- I prefer this 'intelligent' look to the ones that appear to be perpetually startled - JMO - (and not like i would have a bias or anything. ;O) ) (babymakes6)yes-all Legbars seem to have bright, inquisitive eyes blackbirds13 I'd leave the SOP as is for this. It's simple and rather objective

Wattles: Medium in size, smooth, well-rounded, free from folds or wrinkles. Skin soft. [chickat] - the feathers are so dense--and soft and fulffy, that it is somewhat difficult to find the skin. The feathers are surprisingly soft when you pick them up. My Leghorn hybrid (Ideal 236) has a different feather feel, very crisp and slick in comparison. (babymakes6) Her wattles look good-well-rounded, smooth, and on the smaller side (would that be considered medium?) blackbirds13 - not sure exactly what medium is but I think my girls have medium and not large or small. There's a bit of a dangle there.

A Hedemora hen has small wattles: (Picture from Greenfire Farms)

and a Leghorn hen has large wattles:

in the above pict at 22-weeks, both are panting because it was so hot that day...Robin had been digging in some moist dirt to make a dirt bath- hence the dirt on her beak.

Ear-lobes: Medium in size, oblong, pendent, smooth and free from folds, equally matched in size and shape.[chickat] - yes...not much of an earlobe fan (babymakes6) I moved this picture up because you can see her earlobes much better-her earlobes look good to me. blackbirds13 I'd leave the SOP as is for this


Crest: Small, tufted, affixed above the eyes at the forefront of the skull with feathers narrow that extend back towards the blade of the comb. (Please, there’s a need for a lot of comments on how to describe the crest, both male and female). [chickat] - My preference is for a crest that appears darker than any of the other feathering. I also prefer a crest that is trimmed-looking and not too poofy. Rather than the bouffant hair-style look, I prefer the ones that look like a little hat, except integrated. I think a definite but subtle crest is the most attractive. If you have a BYC 2012 calendar, then this months crest is way overkill. (great for Halloween though). I know that crest will be a big discussion point as redchicken9 stated. It is interesting how prominent their crests are as they are growing out...they look like punk-rockers with mowhawks...but then they settle into smooth refined crests as they grow older. (babymakes6) Her crest looks perfect to me, as far as shape. The Scar hens crests look more Polish-like. Legbars have a very distinct crest like no other bird I've seen. blackbirds13 I'm thinking I like a medium crest but not large. Small will work for me

Head: Medium in length, symmetrical, well balanced, and of fine quality. [chickat] - yes - I actually have no expertise in chicken head lengths.... (babymakes6) Her head is very fine, almost aristocratic. blackbirds13 I'd leave the SOP as is for this

Neck: Long and well covered with hackle feathers. [chickat] - this breed does have longer necks than my other chickens, and holds the head high. They are very graceful for that reason ...and when the sit down - especially the females they look so graceful - because they seem to keep their head at the same level....... (babymakes6)Yes-this description fits very well. The only difference I see in the two pictures below is that Robin is leaning slightly forward (walking?), so her head is forward and her tail is up. Her back looks a little bit shorter than the drawing also

Robin was pretty young in the black and white picture..... different pose also - but shows the long neck.
blackbirds13 I'd leave the SOP as is for this.
Back: Moderately broad it’s entire length, long, with an even slope to the tail. Feathers moderately broad and of sufficient length to carry well up to tail. [chickat] - I would say the hens fit this category - and they have no lack of feathering. (babymakes6) Looks good-but back may be just a bit short.
blackbirds13 I'd leave the SOP as is for this.
Tail: Moderately long, carried at an angle of forty degrees (or 35?) above horizontal (see Punnett, text fig.1). Main tail feathers broad and overlapping.[chickat] - I think that tails exceed moderate, and that the tail angle often exceeds 40-degrees. What about y'all. At one point when my pair was growing up -- the hen's tail was much longer than the male's and I remember putting up a post to ask if others had seen that. If I have time to go through posts, I will see If I can come back with a link - but it probably is out there somewhere. (babymakes6) Tails are definitely long and full on every hen I've seen.blackbirds13 is it 40 degrees from vertical or horizontal . If vertical I'd say that's representative of my flock, if from horizontal then mine a about 5-10 degrees to high in general.

Wings: Large and carried close to the body without dropping. [chickat] - yes (babymakes6)yes blackbirds13 I'd leave the SOP as is for this.

Breast: Prominent, well-developed, and carried forward. [chickat] -yes. Although the following picture is blurry and from June when they were 6-mos old approx... IT shows the crest, the barring in the tail..earlobes at 6-mos and comb and wattles. (babymakes6) yes-her shape really seems to fit Punnett's description quite well! blackbirds13 I'd leave the SOP as is for this, my girls all seem to have forward carried chests that seem well developed and most of the images do also.




Before she went seriously broody...she would linger in the nest box---and it ws too hot to be indoors in July! This did give a good hackle, wattle, eye, earlobe and beak photo...... I would say heavily feathered.

There are several other face close ups -- left and right side, in the legbar contest entry. Tonight I will be back to see if I can dig up a link. :O

blackbirds13 - I cannot find much to disagree with on the SOP. The number of points on the comb or the size of the crest may be some areas that may need to be adjusted or confirmed.

I'd leave the SOP as is for this.

 

[redchicken9]

Thanks Blackbirds for doing this! Gonna put one more hour into yard work while it's absolutely beautiful outside, then review the male CL language. All, we're busy, but this is still moving forward. Thank-you for being here!

 

[redchicken9]

Cream Legbar Color – Male




Comb, Face and Wattles: Bright Red. Redchicken9: yes.

Beak: Yellow. (Here, I put yellow following the BPS, however the color ‘horn’ also shows up in ASP, examples leghorn beak color is horn; Plymouth rock, yellow. Horn may be a more natural yellow or a color dirtier than pure yellow, this is hard to say). Ok, the SOP defines horn as a broad term commonly used in describing various shadings of color in the beak (thanks Walt on the reminder to look at the glossary). Redchicken9: I think yellow is OK, but I'm still not fully certain. Below is a juvenile female, seems to be shading on her.




Eyes: Reddish bay. (BPS describes these as orange or red. ASP states reddish bay for a large number of bird eyes that I think may have the same eye color like leghorns, Plymouth rocks, wyandottes, javas, RIR, buckeyes, etc. Different eye descriptions include Minorcas, dark brown; black breasted red modern game have red eyes, while brown red modern game have black eyes). Redchicken9: Bay = light golden brown. Above female, but eye color is truly reddish bay. Yes.




Ear-lobes: Enamel white (or white). (BPS considers it as opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings OK. Here I believe it is a one color only description, with the other possible option being white. Leghorns, minorcas, blue andalusions, buff catalanas are enamel white; Sicilian buttercups are white). Redchicken9: the enamel-white has a satin white surface color, hmm. Going with yes here.


Crest: Cream and gray barred, (BPS some chestnut permissible). Redchicken9: Photo below is of a small crest, so it's hard to define how much is a true crest. I'd describe some of it like the pale straw barred with bright gold brown, another feather or two appears grey and cream. I think it needs to be described as barred, so I'm adding that in. Not certain if I need to add in irregular barring (see below).





Head: (not specified in BPS, but think it is the same as neck below).

*Neck: Hackle cream with infrequent, irregular barring. (BPS: sparsely barred. From my just learned knowledge, regular barring is the black and white transverse pattern of the barred Plymouth Rocks. Irregular is seen in Dominiques, Hollands, Campines (V shaped), and Cuckoo Belgain Bearded d’Anvers Bantams. Dominiques and Barred Hollands are described as irregular, dark and light barred, stopping short of positive black and white. Ours are grey and cream. Here I don’t find another bird with barring and cream. Aside: CL barring is also due to dominate sex-linked factors like Barred Rocks, Dominiques, and Cuckoo groups). Redchicken9: Yes on the description, however my bird shows the colors of rust and lemon are specked in with the grey. The gold legbar neck hackles are pale straw, sparsely barred with gold and black. Would it seem to anyone that the gold legbar hackle description fits?








Back and Shoulders: Cream and dark grey irregular barring. (Here I don’t know whether to add in more. BPS: Some chestnut permissible. I haven’t yet seen in the ASP where a color leakage is mentioned on any other bird. I suspect, it’s like ear-lobes, ASP prefers a crisp color description. Here, those that know more, please comment).
Redchicken9: Yes. OK. May have more than some chestnut, but definitely have chestnut.




*Saddle: Hackles cream barred with dark grey edged with cream. Redchicken9: Here, like with the neck hackles, my saddle hackles once again match the description of the gold legbar, which is pale straw barred with bright gold-brown, as far as possible from black.


Tail: Evenly barred grey. Sickles are lighter barred to white. (Here again is a color range in the sickles, which I’m OK with, but need to research if this is done in any other breeds). Redchicken9: Yes.




Wings: Primaries: Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible. (Here again does the ASP style allow). Redchicken9: Primaries are dark.
Secondaries: Dark grey, more clearly marked (as comment above). Redchicken9: here I have some color.
Coverts: Grey barred, tipped in cream. (BPS says some chestnut permissible, once again is there a bird in ASP with color leakage? We need a reference or guideline on how to describe this and/or permit, if desirable). Redchicken9: Mine may not be fully tipped in cream.

Breast: Irregular dark grey and cream barring, defined in outline. Redchicken9: Yes for description. More or less for my males.

Legs and Toes: Yellow. Redchicken9: Yes.

Thanks, everyone. May add a picture more for breast and description for saddle feather color. Also didn't tackle crest color. OK this is near complete, apologies, but I have to scamper.

Please all look, I edited and I think it is now more complete. Please help in this process by providing review and comments. It is critical that we know this breed/ variety and its color. Next post, my thoughts on this.

 

[redchicken9]

Definitions per the American Standard of Perfection 2010.

Breed: An established group of individuals possessing similar characteristics, and when mated together produce offspring with those same characteristics. A breed may include a number of varieties of the same general weight, distinguished by different color plumage, or different types of combs, or comb and color as in Dorkings, and some cases by bearded or non-bearded.

Variety: A sub-division of a breed. Differentiating characteristics include plumage color, comb type or presence of beards and muffs.

Does anyone feel that these definitions are inaccurate?

Legbars come in three varieties, cream, silver, and gold. The names of the varieties are referring to stable characteristics (that should not change). That's why for poultry breeders need to attest that they have bred the breed for at least 5 years and that their birds produce not less than 50 percent of all specimens reasonably true to type, color, size, and comb.

Here the color issue is at the heart of things. If the cream legbars here are gold dominate, this is an error on what had been a stable and named characteristic (stable that the British poultry club accepted it through their review process in the 1950s). Here this is not about showing, this is about properly differentiating one breed/ variety from another. Cream is more valuable because this is a defining point of the cream legbar, just like egg-color and crest. From all who have posted to date, you can't get cream unless you have cream. Some state you can add cream in through the genetics of a related bird with cream (Nicalandia) or by thinning gold with repeated breeding to a cream bird (Stoneunhenged), but this breed/variety is about cream, ie. cream legbar. When Dirtfarmer jokes about having a gold colored, crested, blue egg layer and then states it won't fly because there's no history to it, this is the crux of things.

Let's be solid about our beginnings and decisions!

Please help by reviewing the color of your cream legbar males. Again this is a group focused on consensus building and filled with good, positive, and smart people! So I know you'll help me do a good job at figuring this out.

 

[rc50]

What redchicken9 said!!!

 

[GaryDean26]

I don't see egg color and cresting listed as allowances for variation between varieties.

I am not sure how the British Standard has the Cream Legbar Listed, but if I remember correctly the Autosexing Poultry Association of Great Britain listed the Silver and Gold Legbars as one Breed and the Cream Legbar as it own breed. I know that I saw it listed that way in something that i read last month with the first sentence of the information on the Cream Legbar saying that the Cream Legbar is closely related to its progenitor the Gold Legbar.

That aside, Yes we have Gold Plumage in our Cream Legbars. Every breed that is accepted into a Standard is required to have distinguishing feature to distinguish it from every other breed. The features that would distinguish the Cream Legbar from the Silver and Gold Legbar would be the Cresting, Blue Eggs, and the Cream Gene. From that standpoint the cream gene is 33% of the value of the Cream Legbar.

I have at least one cream Hen in my flock and possibly two, but assuming that I only had Gold colored birds, I would start by selecting for the best gold birds each year and breed them focusing on body type, production, egg color, etc. Then after several breeding season had set some of those traits in my line I would bring in new blood from someone who was fortunate enough to have the cream gene in their line and able to fix in through proper selection and culling. I would then be able to finish off my birds with the cream plumage from the new blood brought in with the added advantage of not having to cull birds with the better body type, production, temperament, hardiness, etc early in my breeding to retain those precious few birds with the correct cream color.

With the exception of a few colors that are caused by multiple genes that can be really hard to breed out, color is the generally the easiest thing to fix in a line. So if you aren't seeing cream yet, be patient and work on traits that others will want in their line so you can do an egg swap later on.

 

[srpaint]

Glad I found this thread. You guys are doing a great job. Very excited to learn more

 

[ChicKat]

I don't see egg color and cresting listed as allowances for variation between varieties.

I am not sure how the British Standard has the Cream Legbar Listed, but if I remember correctly the Autosexing Poultry Association of Great Britain listed the Silver and Gold Legbars as one Breed and the Cream Legbar as it own breed. I know that I saw it listed that way in something that i read last month with the first sentence of the information on the Cream Legbar saying that the Cream Legbar is closely related to its progenitor the Gold Legbar.

That aside, Yes we have Gold Plumage in our Cream Legbars. Every breed that is accepted into a Standard is required to have distinguishing feature to distinguish it from every other breed. The features that would distinguish the Cream Legbar from the Silver and Gold Legbar would be the Cresting, Blue Eggs, and the Cream Gene. From that standpoint the cream gene is 33% of the value of the Cream Legbar.

I have at least one cream Hen in my flock and possibly two, but assuming that I only had Gold colored birds, I would start by selecting for the best gold birds each year and breed them focusing on body type, production, egg color, etc. Then after several breeding season had set some of those traits in my line I would bring in new blood from someone who was fortunate enough to have the cream gene in their line and able to fix in through proper selection and culling. I would then be able to finish off my birds with the cream plumage from the new blood brought in with the added advantage of not having to cull birds with the better body type, production, temperament, hardiness, etc early in my breeding to retain those precious few birds with the correct cream color.

With the exception of a few colors that are caused by multiple genes that can be really hard to breed out, color is the generally the easiest thing to fix in a line. So if you aren't seeing cream yet, be patient and work on traits that others will want in their line so you can do an egg swap later on.

I'm 100% in agreement, and we probably need to make a mantra that we don't want to loose sight of the other qualities that make these birds unique.

I appreciate the degree of precision that is being established in the SOP...that will give a club a starting point with the draft that is much closer to the finished product than most drafts. I think too that the distinct appearance and auto-sexing, blue eggs, crests and cream make up the birds..... The SOP doesn't address hardiness, temperament and production - and for the ordinary everyday person...those traits are actually more practical and important - probably autosexing for a byc owner too. Show orientation is one part but actual results need to be emphasized for this breed too IMO.

 

[ChicKat]

Glad I found this thread. You guys are doing a great job. Very excited to learn more

Glad you found it too, there are a lot of great chicken owners visiting this thread.

 

[redchicken9]

I don't see egg color and cresting listed as allowances for variation between varieties.

I am not sure how the British Standard has the Cream Legbar Listed, but if I remember correctly the Autosexing Poultry Association of Great Britain listed the Silver and Gold Legbars as one Breed and the Cream Legbar as it own breed. I know that I saw it listed that way in something that i read last month with the first sentence of the information on the Cream Legbar saying that the Cream Legbar is closely related to its progenitor the Gold Legbar.

That aside, Yes we have Gold Plumage in our Cream Legbars. Every breed that is accepted into a Standard is required to have distinguishing feature to distinguish it from every other breed. The features that would distinguish the Cream Legbar from the Silver and Gold Legbar would be the Cresting, Blue Eggs, and the Cream Gene. From that standpoint the cream gene is 33% of the value of the Cream Legbar.

I have at least one cream Hen in my flock and possibly two, but assuming that I only had Gold colored birds, I would start by selecting for the best gold birds each year and breed them focusing on body type, production, egg color, etc. Then after several breeding season had set some of those traits in my line I would bring in new blood from someone who was fortunate enough to have the cream gene in their line and able to fix in through proper selection and culling. I would then be able to finish off my birds with the cream plumage from the new blood brought in with the added advantage of not having to cull birds with the better body type, production, temperament, hardiness, etc early in my breeding to retain those precious few birds with the correct cream color.

With the exception of a few colors that are caused by multiple genes that can be really hard to breed out, color is the generally the easiest thing to fix in a line. So if you aren't seeing cream yet, be patient and work on traits that others will want in their line so you can do an egg swap later on.

The British Poultry Standard states, "The legbar comes in three varieties: gold, silver, and cream. The cream variety is a crested breed which lays a blue, green, or olive egg. Thereafter, the characteristics are the same for all three colours. The gold and silver are barred Leghorns whereas the cream Legbar has had a dose of Araucana blood to give its crest and egg color."

Oh, and thank-you GaryDean for commenting.