Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[TheTropix]

Great Question.

The Cream Legbar was developed first and foremost to be practical - and then whimsical. Autosexing is the most valuable trait of the CL - We get kind of spoiled knowing right away what sex the chick is -- and it seems odd to read in other threads how the mystery must unfold. Sadly in the UK some of their lines of birds have "lost their autosexing"
http://poultrykeeper.com/chicken-breeds/legbar-chickens

the site states: "many Crean Legbars have lost their autosexing qualities." --( The paragraph right before BOOKS at the bottom. ) This, and the differentiation of egg color from the original 1950's entry into the SOP where only blue eggs are mentioned,
to the subsequent inclusion of green and olive eggs in the UK

lead me to wonder exactly what misadventures were going on over there...

So my view is that if those traits were "lost" as the poultry keeper listing states, it would be a giant disservice to the breed. If someone sold me a CL that didn't produce blue or green eggs and the chicks weren't autosexing....

Punnett added the crest and the blue eggs - perhaps because he could - making a separation of the blue-egg genetics and the pea comb.... ( In the UK the Araucanas are crested in two varities or tufted and not rumpless like the USA version.) I think that some in the UK perhaps working to get other things into the bird -- who knows what -- did diminish the autosexing -- and added a new egg color. It would be interesting to see when the Poultry Club of Great Britain changed the SOP to add olive to the egg color.

So it was intended to be practical, useful while at the same time unique - a perfect bird for the small flock - and perfect for people who cannot have roosters in their environment.
If it isn't autosexing, and blue egg laying it isn't a Cream Legbar. (IMO) --

I agree completely. I've tried to find out when 'olive' was added to the Brit SOP, but haven't been successful... yet.

If it isn't autosexing, and blue egg laying it isn't a Cream Legbar (IMO)
IMO, too. Those 2 traits are, or are supposed to be, the 2 most important traits that define and differentiate the Cream Legbar (and the crest ).

 

[GaryDean26]

egg color and auto sexing is a big part of this breeds appeal. Too bad it can't have more importance.

I agree that they are important. The distinguishing things to the Cream Legbar Breed are 1) Auto-sexing 2) Blue Eggs 3) Cream Plumage. These were all new characterizes never before seen in any poultry breeds in the UK before the Cambridge University Breeding Program's work. The Cream Legbar was the culmination of all these discoveries and research. I am not saying that they are not important. I am just saying that writing something into an SOP that can't be measured by an APA judge at Poultry Show may not accomplish very much in and off itself. Without the contests to provide a platform for this to be measured, there will be little improvement.

Before laying contest were held to track the most productive hen what good did it do to write a breed standard that say that a breed should laid 250 eggs in its first year of production? What good did it do to say a Marans should lay a #4 or higher on the color scale before Marans egg contests were held. I think that we should set up chicks contests, egg contests, deduct points if cream Legbar are shown with out cream plumage etc. I think that the SOP standard will take care of the Cream Plumage, but don't the SOP will take care of auto-sexing or egg color (regardless of how they are describes), so I feel that we should keep the descriptions general for the auto-sexing and egg color and work on improving them through the CLB club rather than through language in the SOP).

 

[ChicKat]

I agree that they are important. The distinguishing things to the Cream Legbar Breed are 1) Auto-sexing 2) Blue Eggs 3) Cream Plumage. These were all new characterizes never before seen in any poultry breeds in the UK before the Cambridge University Breeding Program's work. The Cream Legbar was the culmination of all these discoveries and research. I am not saying that they are not important. I am just saying that writing something into an SOP that can't be measured by an APA judge at Poultry Show may not accomplish very much in and off itself. Without the contests to provide a platform for this to be measured, there will be little improvement.

Before laying contest were held to track the most productive hen what good did it do to write a breed standard that say that a breed should laid 250 eggs in its first year of production? What good did it do to say a Marans should lay a #4 or higher on the color scale before Marans egg contests were help. I think that we should set up chicks contests, egg contests, deduct points if cream Legbar are shown with out cream plumage etc. I think that the SOP standard will take care of the Cream Plumage, but don't the SOP will take care of auto-sexing or egg color (regardless of how they are describes), so I feel that we should keep the descriptions general for the auto-sexing and egg color and work on improving them through the CLB club rather than through language in the SOP).

Good Point - especially if no other breeds talk about those things in the SOP.

Just for consideration -- Cream Legbar is 1-Autosexing, 2-Blue egg laying and 3. Crested....

Used to be part of the name, then was dropped, and the only one of the Legbars with Crest.

 

[GaryDean26]

Quote: First Place: Curtis Hale
Second Place: Gary Kemp
Third Place: April Howington

People's Choice: Curtis Hale

Here is a photo of the winning pair. More photos of the event and the contest rules and judging criterion were listed on the Cream Legbar club site. This was an open contest listed in the general bulletin of the show. Information was made available to everyone that requested it and was open to anyone who could meet the rule for entry and display that were set out in the rules. The Cream Legbar Club presented Certificates to all the winners and H&H Poultry sponsored a plaque for the over all winner.

 

[WHmarans]

First Place: Curtis Hale Second Place: Gary Kemp Third Place: April Howington People's Choice: Curtis Hale Here is a photo of the winning pair. More photos of the event and the contest rules and judging criterion were listed on the Cream Legbar club site. This was an open contest listed in the general bulletin of the show. Information was made available to everyone that requested it and was open to anyone who could meet the rule for entry and display that were set out in the rules. The Cream Legbar Club presented Certificates to all the winners and H&H Poultry sponsored a plaque for the over all winner.

That is a super cute picture. Cute as buttons.

 

[WHmarans]

Good Point - especially if no other breeds talk about those things in the SOP. 

Just for consideration -- Cream Legbar is 1-Autosexing, 2-Blue egg laying and 3. Crested....     

Used to be part of the name, then was dropped, and the only one of the Legbars with Crest. 

it just seems a shame that two of the three most important features can't be judged. That makes it seem all the more important to document what they should be. Just to not risk having a moving target it would be handy to have something that clarifies what these important characteristics should look like...if they do matter. I guess that's where the intro you mentioned has to serve that purpose.

Now this is where I show abundant foolishness: isn't quantifying egg color as simple as picking an egg color chart and a color or range of colors on that chart that eggs should be?

This from a person who also wishes the SOP could contain measurements like length to width ratios for body type or shoulder width to width at tail ratio ranges...or something. I just like things to be concrete a little too much I guess. OK enough out of me I will leave it to the people who know vastly more than me (almost anyone) to populate the thread with more reasonable (and more on track) things than I do!

 

[Darkangael]

I agree the most important things about the breed is the Auto Sexing capability and the blue eggs. They should also have a crest as that is part of the original description.

 

[ChicKat]

it just seems a shame that two of the three most important features can't be judged. That makes it seem all the more important to document what they should be. Just to not risk having a moving target it would be handy to have something that clarifies what these important characteristics should look like...if they do matter. I guess that's where the intro you mentioned has to serve that purpose.

It should be simple... The Ameraucana Club and the Araucana Club have egg color charts...and there is some matchability... But a lot of times the actual egg color is a bit between colors. Most CL Club people use the OAC (online auction color chart)--- It has more than the blues-greens -- but we are beginning to know that OAC213 is bluer that OAC151...and the OAC has yellows and salmons to be able to discuss too...(it also has cream and white BTW)--- Forgot to announce at the Cream Legbar Club meeting last night I have some OACs fresh from the printer -- if you are a club member, and you need one - PM me -- the first three to PM will get an OAC (send me your mailing address too BTW) So i a way-- you are right, the colors can be matched for closest color - or 'a bit lighter than xxxnnn' or between two swatches. Maybe part of the trouble is that focus on just one trait sacrifices other traits sometimes...and no one has really focused on eggs. I keep trying to email a person who told me their eggs were like faded blue jeans.... WR -if you read this please PM me.. didn't get an answer to my emails.

I'm thinking all your insights are right on track...and there are some criteria that can be used.....Lots are found in other threads...such as measuring the width of the pelvic bones on a hen to see if she is going to be a good layer...etc. We should collect these skills/measures also for people to reference. Great idea. Your approach is very scientific... sometimes with livestock they do break the rules though. CLs are supposed to be 'non sitters' (or is it setters?) --- and I had the first one go broody, then her daughter went broody - (a daughter of a hen that went broody is more likely to go broody)-- and I couldn't be more pleased. It is a trait that I value....but it doesn't fit the description.....

Good thoughts and keep the good ideas coming!!

 

[ChicKat]

First Place: Curtis Hale
Second Place: Gary Kemp
Third Place: April Howington

People's Choice: Curtis Hale

Here is a photo of the winning pair. More photos of the event and the contest rules and judging criterion were listed on the Cream Legbar club site. This was an open contest listed in the general bulletin of the show. Information was made available to everyone that requested it and was open to anyone who could meet the rule for entry and display that were set out in the rules. The Cream Legbar Club presented Certificates to all the winners and H&H Poultry sponsored a plaque for the over all winner.

They ARE so cute.... here's a link to the write up on the Club's contest site:
https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarclubcontestsite/chick-autosexing-contest-april-13th

includes a little slide show. Extra consideration was given for the youth of the chicks... April's chicks were older --- but a lot of them (A LOT) were sold to go home to happy new Cream Legbar owners....

 

[nicalandia]

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They look like Plain old Autosexing Chicks, would like to see the losing pair as to see what was the difference, I bet not much if any
Quote:
the site states: "many Crean Legbars have lost their autosexing qualities."

How can the Autosexing Trait be lost?.. its quite simple, e+/e+ B/B males and e+/e+ B/- Females, this is true for all of the other Autosexing breeds based on e+/e+ B/B .... even with modifiers like Co, Mahogany this is not affected(in the case of Rhodebars) and the Welbas lack the cream gene yet they are autosexing...
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