Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[ChicKat]

Thanks! I love seeing girls hatch but the funny thing is I'm in the market for a rooster. Thanks for the tip RE straight lines. I didn't notice this about them before!

Does anyone read Popular Poultry Magazine? I had picked up a copy at, some store...maybe tractor supply. It has an article about the "Prepotent Rooster". It's quite interesting - just a few pages... if one didn't want to spring for the ridiculous price of a magazine now-a-days -- (Like $6 - are you kidding) - one could browse it on the shelf of the store... just a thought.

Quick bottom line - because the rooster passes along a lot of sexlinked genes that are doubles he is more influential on the future of your flock than the hen. Isn't that interesting? Of course that is a gross over simplification of a 6-page article. The mag is based in the UK but a lot of the advertisements were USA so they must have a USA edition.

Good luck finding that rooster!!

 

[GaryDean26]

Are there any of these that seem too blurred in the back stripe to be good chick down to use in breeding? Of course ill see how they mature too....

A breeder in the UK that has been hatching 100's of Cream Legbars a year for 6-7 years told me that her best mature hens often have less crisp stripes than others in the hatch group. So...good auto-sexing down doesn't seem to have a direct coloration to good adult plumage. Further down the road when you have 40 pullets chicks to choose from rather than 4 you can be more choosy with chick down. Right now I would say all of these look good enough to breed from.

 

[dretd]

Quote:
Somehow, somewhere, the birds became very faddish. In the UK they are sold in pet stores...and the UK is pretty far ahead of the USA in a LOT of backyard chicken things...(Did you know they have reflective little chicken rain coats..so that the chooks won't get hit by a car if they are out in the dreary light of evening on their way home to roost-- seriously) They have better chicken wormers that the USA..I could go on - but I digress.

I think a big conflict arose when people in the UK interpreted the SOP to mean one thing...and bred/are breeding toward that interpretation. A number of people in the USA did fall in love with the colorful bird..and had a real push-back on folks who wanted to go monochrome.

Back to being a done-deal...in addition to all the lost records, lack of pictures, mixed up breeding in the UK to loose autosexing and introduce olive eggs...etc. in the UK a commercial breed like our Easter Eggers was named the Cotswold Legbar - because it was similar to the CL - and perhaps had CL parentage -- as a hybrid it was a prolific layer---and I think the eggs in pretty packages were selling for something astounding like $2.00 per egg in Harrods and other high-end department store food sections in the UK.

When GFF imported CLs the birds were colorful ones, and -- I also think that the colors on the website are a bit extra saturated.

Then the idea that cream looked like white flew around for awhile...until KPenley contacted a UK judge who responded that Cream looks like light butter. That would have, should have, could have put the discussion to rest...but it hasn't seemed to. One thing that I really look for now is a mis-match between the color of the ear lobe (enamel white according to the SOP) and the adjoining hackle feathers - should be according to the USA Draft SOP :Neck: Hackle—cream, sparsely barred with gray. So - it cannot be both enamel white and cream.

It was dismaying when people were told their birds weren't good, because they weren't 'white-looking' --- until the light butter comparison came along -- and as a friend of mine said "all my cream legbars suddenly got much better"

If you go to the Club's website and look at the slide show of randomly posted CL pictures...https://sites.google.com/site/thecreamlegbarclub/02-gallery---photos-of-cream-legbars
Slide 8 shows the more white looking CL and slide 9 a more Cream colored cream legbar -- and again the earlobes are a real "tell".

Here is a link also to another rooster that has Cream in the hackles... --> Post 345
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/825092/cream-legbar-hybrid-thread/340

So there are maybe 3 Cream roosters in the USA... that I know of....... but a lot of them have partial Cream in their hackles.....

It will take awhile for everyone to be on the same page, and it may never happen. Occasionally I search google for Cream Legbars, and I also search eBay and go to the poultry sites like feathersite and the sites in the UK....for the most part, I am seeing the distinctive Cream Legbar that is recognizable and unique...and not the white Cream legbar...so I think that for the most part the bird is known and set...

I did not know that--about the rain jackets. I simply must see a photos!

Could you elaborate on the color of the ear and the neck hackles--I am confused about it. Are you saying that they should be a different color in the ideal sense, or that one genetically predisposes the color of the other? Or something else?

I think that with all of the talk about cream, I get confused about when someone is talking about Cream the genes (ig/ig) and Cream the color. They are not really the same thing. Either the chicken is ig/ig and genetically expresses cream or s/he isn't and doesn't. I think in my mind the trouble comes in when you have other genetic modifiers--such as autosomal red and melanizers--that alter the perceived color from lighter/whiter/pale buttery to more lemony butter in an otherwise genetically ig/ig bird. I think that there are a portion of roosters where it is obvious they are ig/ig (the lighter ones) and I think that may be a reason people are expressing admiration for their color--they are obviously genetically what you want in your flock to be a Cream Legbar. There are a bunch of obviously Gold boys out there too--very colorful and not what we want (look on ebay--they populate many offerings). Then there are the squishy ones in the middle. Is he a melanized, AR ig/ig roo, or is he a very pale washed-out gold roo? Arguments and hurt feelings ensue. Those ambiguous ones are the hard ones and there will be arguments in perpetuity on them until test matings are done and we can establish whether they are ig/ig or Ig/Ig-ig. Unfortunately without that data the discussion will revert to the phenotypic color of what one person sees. It will be an opinion both in color and aesthetics. It will be a circular argument that will go no where, unfortunately, without data to back it up.

When you say you have seen only 3 cream roos, are you talking color or genetically cream? If you talk color, cream means different things to different people and a pasture-raised milk cow from the Northwest may very well have very yellow-tinted milk and cream whereas most other cow's cream is pretty pale. So even saying 'pale buttery' or 'cream' can mean two very different things to two different people and since is a subjective eye of the beholder there will be circular arguments. I personally would prefer to stick to cream as the genetic reference and unfortunately there are some that we simply will have to put a question mark by until time unfolds the answers. I am pretty sure I have seen pictures of more than 3 ig/ig roosters.

I am still learning and forming my opinions, and it would be presumptuous for me to tell someone else what to do or how to breed. They can look at the proposed SOP and their own stock and make their own decisions on what is most important to breed for and what they think chestnut means. Personally, I am trying to look at and understand other areas besides hackle color to determine what is going on. I am thinking after the discussion about wing bays that is a very important area to look at those as well as the saddle color. There is a balance that needs to be achieved and if you focus on one area like hackles, others such as breast color may be lost or diminished.

I think that the discussions, although re-hashing for some, are good overall so that we can better understand the concerns that some have and also hopefully all come to a better understanding of Cream Legbars both genetically and how those genes are expressed.

 

[WHmarans]

I thought there was a lot of interesting information in that post dretd so if it is rehash for someone else it was helpful and interesting to me. Also I wonder if as perspectives change others might have a different take on the same issue making it not really a rehash?

ChicKat that makes a lot of sense. Roos must very important even if only because one roo usually pairs with many hens and has more influence over the whole resulting flock than any single hen. (Unless culling makes a particular hen as important). I think ill take the possibly low odds route of getting some GFF Roos if I can and see where that gets me!

Though I am not sure ill ever have 40 pullets to choose from (my husband would definitely protest by that point) I just may use all these girls if they grow up ok!

 

[dretd]

I thought there was a lot of interesting information in that post dretd so if it is rehash for someone else it was helpful and interesting to me. Also I wonder if as perspectives change others might have a different take on the same issue making it not really a rehash?

ChicKat that makes a lot of sense. Roos must very important even if only because one roo usually pairs with many hens and has more influence over the whole resulting flock than any single hen. (Unless culling makes a particular hen as important). I think ill take the possibly low odds route of getting some GFF Roos if I can and see where that gets me!

Though I am not sure ill ever have 40 pullets to choose from (my husband would definitely protest by that point) I just may use all these girls if they grow up ok!

Thanks for your comments, WHMarans. I certainly learn from everyone and my views do sometimes change over time as I learn more information or as I gain experience. I have a plan based on my understanding and what I have and will modify my plan and opinions as I progress.

Sounds like we should get our hubbies together. I got the initial stamp of approval for breeding Cream Legbars--'sounds great Honey!'. Then when I had two boys hatch I'm like 'yay' and he's---wait a minute, don't you only need one rooster to make babies?' Got him straightened out on that one. Now I had to break the news--'Can't wait until spring when I can start hatching. I need to warn you that I am aiming to hatch about a hundred babies next year, but don't worry I'll cull it back to the best 5 or 10 at most.' I think I heard him swallow over the car engine. Always best to bring these things up when he's otherwise distracted! I just need to hatch some girls since I have only ever hatched boys from my own flock. I will definitely try your tip on removing the roo before collecting and see if it makes a difference!

 

[WHmarans]

Lol. Either it's taking the hens away or all the oatmeal and french toast and scrambled egg treats they get when I take them away! But I hatch a heap of girls this way. I hope it works for you!

 

[ChicKat]

I did not know that--about the rain jackets. I simply must see a photos!

https://www.omlet.co.uk/shop/chicken_keeping/high-vis_chicken_jacket/ -- isn't that so cute...they come in pink and yellow. What ARE they doing away from the roost at night I want to know.

Could you elaborate on the color of the ear and the neck hackles--I am confused about it. Are you saying that they should be a different color in the ideal sense, or that one genetically predisposes the color of the other? Or something else?

If the SOP says that the earlobes are 'enamel white' - then if the neck hackles are a match, they too would be enamel white... If they are not a match they have a better chance of being cream -- One person has resident roos with examples of both---look at the 8th slide for white earlobes and white hackles and the 9th slide for white earlobes and non-white hackles. Brad Phui pointed this out in another thread BTW

https://sites.google.com/site/thecreamlegbarclub/02-gallery---photos-of-cream-legbars


I think that with all of the talk about cream, I get confused about when someone is talking about Cream the genes (ig/ig) and Cream the color. They are not really the same thing. Either the chicken is ig/ig and genetically expresses cream or s/he isn't and doesn't. I think in my mind the trouble comes in when you have other genetic modifiers--such as autosomal red and melanizers--that alter the perceived color from lighter/whiter/pale buttery to more lemony butter in an otherwise genetically ig/ig bird. I think that there are a portion of roosters where it is obvious they are ig/ig (the lighter ones) and I think that may be a reason people are expressing admiration for their color--they are obviously genetically what you want in your flock to be a Cream Legbar. There are a bunch of obviously Gold boys out there too--very colorful and not what we want (look on ebay--they populate many offerings). Then there are the squishy ones in the middle. Is he a melanized, AR ig/ig roo, or is he a very pale washed-out gold roo? Arguments and hurt feelings ensue. Those ambiguous ones are the hard ones and there will be arguments in perpetuity on them until test matings are done and we can establish whether they are ig/ig or Ig/Ig-ig. Unfortunately without that data the discussion will revert to the phenotypic color of what one person sees. It will be an opinion both in color and aesthetics. It will be a circular argument that will go no where, unfortunately, without data to back it up.

Haven't quite a few people advised us lately to focus more on the SOP than on the preposed genetics? Since the SOP is in the realm of the APA and the APA is involved with showing...it has to be the appearance of the bird that predominates APA acceptance. The genetics are wizz-bang cool and all -- but until there is actually a map of the Genome I don't think that any of us really truly know ALL there is to know. Punnett hadn't solved/unlocked the genetic puzzle regarding cream - and I suspect that there is an unknown factor - which he mentions in his paper:
http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/48/327.pdf

When you say you have seen only 3 cream roos, are you talking color or genetically cream? If you talk color, cream means different things to different people and a pasture-raised milk cow from the Northwest may very well have very yellow-tinted milk and cream whereas most other cow's cream is pretty pale. So even saying 'pale buttery' or 'cream' can mean two very different things to two different people and since is a subjective eye of the beholder there will be circular arguments. I personally would prefer to stick to cream as the genetic reference and unfortunately there are some that we simply will have to put a question mark by until time unfolds the answers. I am pretty sure I have seen pictures of more than 3 ig/ig roosters.

No, I am talking visually not genetically, again - the APA judge won't be able to tell the genetics of an entrant in a poultry show. And if Punnett didn't figure it out with his years of test breeding and his expertise, I am doubtful that what is on the table at present is the genetic answer.

Funniest thing when you talk about milk and cream I realized today that there are probably not very many old enough or rural enough to remember what milk used to look like, and even if someone buys whole milk now the cream doesn't rise to the top. So to some folks cream means one thing and to others it is another--but regardless it isn't enamel white as stated in the SOP:




It is an age thing...like kids today don't know how to read 'cursive writing'.... LOL. the cream of milk from a Jersey cow in summer is quite yellow...So pale butter color, or light butter color or light light light butter color isn't enamel white. Even the milk isn't enamel white IMO. So to my eyes, again using the slide 8 and 9 roosters in the above reference, and the Familypendragon rooster and a recent post on eBay which has since sold are cream.


I am still learning and forming my opinions, and it would be presumptuous for me to tell someone else what to do or how to breed. They can look at the proposed SOP and their own stock and make their own decisions on what is most important to breed for and what they think chestnut means. Personally, I am trying to look at and understand other areas besides hackle color to determine what is going on. I am thinking after the discussion about wing bays that is a very important area to look at those as well as the saddle color. There is a balance that needs to be achieved and if you focus on one area like hackles, others such as breast color may be lost or diminished.

There is no doubt that everyone of us is still learning, and that each person will and should raise the chickens that they want to keep. Awhile back there was a post of a rooster that had no coloration except white and black and with the exception of a crest it could have been anything....I think that Sweetdreaming summed up that the choice between a very distinctive rooster, and a less distinctive one -- especially to a 'casual observer' is the direction that a number of raisers wish to take. The visuals are what the SOP describes and not the genetics...It has to because there aren't going to be DNA tests on chickens. infact, I would really love to have a DNA test...and even then I'm not 100% sure it would really be conclusive.

I think that the discussions, although re-hashing for some, are good overall so that we can better understand the concerns that some have and also hopefully all come to a better understanding of Cream Legbars both genetically and how those genes are expressed.

 

[chicken pickin]

Until we find a close to SOP rooster to post pics of for reference, I wonder if it might start to help people visualize each individual ideal color for a rooster and hen if we use the OAC color chart and list the boxes that are ideal for each color on all parts of the body, boxes that closely match to our ideal cream(pale butter) also the boxes that are ideal for the salmon breast, the gray in the barring, the chestnut etc. Those boxes of color don't change if you have it on paper in front of you so people wouldnt have to wonder if there computer is showing true colors. So if we can decide on something like that then people could physically hold the feather to the boxes and see where they are. I don't know if this sounds silly but it was just a thought since everyone is still seemingly confused by what pale butter means. I feel I have a good idea.

 

[KPenley]

Until we find a close to SOP rooster to post pics of for reference, I wonder if it might start to help people visualize each individual ideal color for a rooster and hen if we use the OAC color chart and list the boxes that are ideal for each color on all parts of the body, boxes that closely match to our ideal cream(pale butter) also the boxes that are ideal for the salmon breast, the gray in the barring, the chestnut etc. Those boxes of color don't change if you have it on paper in front of you so people wouldnt have to wonder if there computer is showing true colors. So if we can decide on something like that then people could physically hold the feather to the boxes and see where they are. I don't know if this sounds silly but it was just a thought since everyone is still seemingly confused by what pale butter means. I feel I have a good idea.

I think there is a lot of sense to this, but it will take some time. How about, as we go through the body sections of the chicken, that we attach some OAC colors for reference (I think we're going to do 5 parts at a time in the upcoming series, until we've taken a close look at the whole bird)?

 

[dretd]

Quote: Great reply and thanks for the link to the hen jackets--they gave me a laugh!

I think that for me, I do see things a bit differently from you and I do think we are representative of the push and pull if the discussions of the Cream Legbar coloration.

For me, Cream Legbars were developed by geneticists looking at the Cream gene (in a Mendelian way since this was before the double helix was discovered). They knew a lot about this gene and knew it was different than silver and that it diluted gold. The names of the Legbars are a reflection of the genetics of the bird and not of the visual representation of the bird. That is not to say that all cream ig/ig legbars look like silver ones despite what Pease had said*. I think there will be some variety in coloration because of the unknown other factors (AR/melanization). So for me it is very important to fall back to the original intent of the breed which is to have a breed consisting of ig/ig genetics in all of its variety. Once you have a set of birds that are genetically Cream, then you can test out how that is expressed in the birds and how much variety there is in the coloration with the modifiers present.

*I know Pease was quoted to say he put the crest on so you could tell the difference between the Silver and Cream. Sometimes really smart people who know a subject well make assumptions about what the other fellow knows and leave out a few qualifiers because they assume it is given. I have to wonder if he really meant this quote to apply to all of the birds, or if there is overlap with some of the lighter Cream and the Silver and that the crest made it very clear so there was no question. As an example, I had a conversion with a producer of fertile eggs in CA. I wanted to know what breeds make up the eggs in the refrigerator case as I was toying with the idea of trying to hatch them. He told me that he used RSL (typically ISA Browns) hens and White Leghorn males. When I asked why, his first comment was that they like to be able to tell the males from the females in the enclosure (he eventually went on to list other reasons). Now taken at face value, this makes no sense--surely as a poultryman he could tell the difference between roosters and hens even if he is in a hurry. But he really wanted to be able to easily differentiate the two at a glance and not have to muse over each one and the different colors make that easy. Just like a crest on the Cream would make it easy. Just a thought on this quote.