Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[nicalandia]

Quote:
I agree, her salmon breast has faded I am not sure what genes are responsible for the bright Salmon breast on Silver Welbars, but these birds dont seem to fade at all even in the presence of Silver and Barring... I'll have to find the pics of such hens and post them here so you can see

 

[nicalandia]

this is the Silver Welbar Hen I was talking about..

http://i43.tinypic.com/2vjtq89.jpg

but then again Silver Duckwing Welsumer have the Richest Salmon Breast I've seen

http://i40.tinypic.com/smdlk7.jpg

what genes are at play here is beyond me because their males are Clean Silver duckwing(no red on shoulders) this gene/s my be Hormonal and affect only females...


the Silver Duckwing Leghorns I've seen are all pale breasted and also the Silver Duckwing Arauncanas, so no surprice the thet CCL is also

here is a Silver Crele Leghorn pullet with a very very pale breast(similar to the CCL hen posted)

source of Silver Crele Leghorn http://www.kippenencyclopedie.nl/php/index.php?title=Leghorn

 

[ChicKat]

Another angle is that - while we were all thinking that perhaps Punnett was color-blind --when he was calling the eggs blue - and others were saying blue-green-olive, it wasn't until TheTropix pointed out in his egg shell color paper that he included blue, green and olive in his blue category and thus was talking about the blue-egg gene.

We couldn't understand how Punnett would call the color of the hen's body as only silver gray when clearly the hens are not that. Once again we could be mis-understanding Punnett. This is especially clear when we read the quotes that TheTropix found about Punnetts putting browns and grays together.
c
It seems that it must be irrefutable that if the Cream Legbar has Cream it must therefore be a gold based bird. Since Silver is a dominant gene - any silver will cover up gold and hence cream. In the UK it is very possible that in the attempt to strengthen the breed some silver genetics got introduced.


as GD26 stated we have a chance not to replicate any errors that may have crept in over there.

 

[KPenley]

@Dr. E: I have been wondering also about how much is just in the eye of the beholder. This is one of those areas that down the road we will need to consult with judges for their opinions since there are no color charts in the APA SOP and there are standard colors used to describe different colors and types of birds.

I took these a few minutes ago...and as I have admitted before photography is not a strong point of mine.

Chicks hatched this weekend: From the left- boy, girl with reddish browns, then two girls with colder browns.


Kate: Cream and dark grays to the eye. She is unproven in breeding though. Interesting to me is that the camera picks up some brownish golden colors in the sunlight, where I see none to my naked eye.


Here, Chocolate is at the top. She is golden and definitely has warmer hues. My daughter can not bear to part with her...so she stays for eating eggs now. Below her are two pullets that recently joined the pen. The one on the bottom left is golden and has again warm hues (along with mottling). She is not a keeper but I needed her help in bringing the younger one on the bottom right in. On the bottom right, Apple is cream and gray to the eye, and sadly she is uncrested. But she is very close in appearance to her Mom which helps me to know that her Mom Cider is cream and breeds true. I hope you can see that even in the sun her colors are colder than the pullet to her left.


One example of the the cold gray I mentioned. On the left is 1 year old Chocolate (again she is a golden hen with obvious warm tones). The pullet on the right is Rose. She is the only pullet I kept from this year's hatches because of the grays in her coloring and her nice full body for a young pullet, despite the terrible mottling. She started laying about a month ago. Her hackles are an odd dark gold with bits of cream mottled look, but I want to test her to see if she can nick cream since her body colors imply that she carries it.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
Cream does dilute the hens body and on hens lacking red enhancers would make their body silver like or at least almost silver like, Red enhancers would change this

 

[chicken pickin]

This is all very interesting whta you all are talking about with the warn and coolTaupe verse the silver-gray. Like most of you have mentioned I think the taupe version seems more common so it seems like that would be the correct coloration for the hens. Im very interested to read more of what you all have to say about this matter. My 2 pullets are taupe-ish but they seem to have a cooler tone rather than a warmer tone. I chose that specifically because my rooster has a little to much red coming through that I would like to try to eliminate.

 

[HaplessRunner]

This has been an enlightening and reassuring discussion on this thread. I was having a great deal of difficulty with some of the colors of recent hatches of pullets. The thread on the "The Classroom @ The Coop" has been interesting. The commentary there on the potential errors in the UK SOP was particularly enlightening and appears to be the source of much frustration in our discussions.

So if the geneticists are right about the errors in the UK SOP and the cream legbar really is based on a gold-based bird, then many logical deduction can be made.

1. The current populations of CCLs in the USA are probably closer to the "corrected" standard than we realize.
2. The silvered-grey CCL is a minor variety that very few breeders have been able develop and comprise an overall small percentage of the CCL population. My guesstimate would be much less than 10%.
3. It will be far easier achieve the number of breeders and numbers of the correct type birds with CCLs that are gold-based. Since the silvered-grey variety is hard to obtain, requires years of selective breeding, and is much less well known, achieving a critical mass of breeders and correct birds for APA approval may prove to be a potentially Herculean task.

From a popularity perspective, everyone to whom I have demonstrated cream legbars have always loved their colors, are fascinated by the blue eggs and crests. My experience at the Virginia Poultry Breeders Association Show on November 23, 2013 where I showed three cockerels and two pullets was definitive. The CCLs were the only chickens at the show where there were consistent crowds standing, examining, and inquiring about the cream legbars. From 9:00 AM until approximately 2:30 PM, it seemed that I was almost continuously discussing the CCLs, their history, their traits, etc. As a result, I had many folks who gave me their cards and addresses who are interested in acquiring chicks and hatching eggs in the spring.

 

[blackbirds13]

This has been an enlightening and reassuring discussion on this thread. I was having a great deal of difficulty with some of the colors of recent hatches of pullets. The thread on the "The Classroom @ The Coop" has been interesting. The commentary there on the potential errors in the UK SOP was particularly enlightening and appears to be the source of much frustration in our discussions.

So if the geneticists are right about the errors in the UK SOP and the cream legbar really is based on a gold-based bird, then many logical deduction can be made.

1. The current populations of CCLs in the USA are probably closer to the "corrected" standard than we realize.
2. The silvered-grey CCL is a minor variety that very few breeders have been able develop and comprise an overall small percentage of the CCL population. My guesstimate would be much less than 10%.
3. It will be far easier achieve the number of breeders and numbers of the correct type birds with CCLs that are gold-based. Since the silvered-grey variety is hard to obtain, requires years of selective breeding, and is much less well known, achieving a critical mass of breeders and correct birds for APA approval may prove to be a potentially Herculean task.

From a popularity perspective, everyone to whom I have demonstrated cream legbars have always loved their colors, are fascinated by the blue eggs and crests. My experience at the Virginia Poultry Breeders Association Show on November 23, 2013 where I showed three cockerels and two pullets was definitive. The CCLs were the only chickens at the show where there were consistent crowds standing, examining, and inquiring about the cream legbars. From 9:00 AM until approximately 2:30 PM, it seemed that I was almost continuously discussing the CCLs, their history, their traits, etc. As a result, I had many folks who gave me their cards and addresses who are interested in acquiring chicks and hatching eggs in the spring.

The Cream Legbar is a gold based bird as you put it with barring and a double dose of ig/cream. There are very few if any silver based birds in the US. The lighter birds are correct for cream but may have issues with a lack or too much enhancers or inhibitors but the standard does not call for a gold bird. The Silver-gray is not hard to obtain it just takes a bit of work and patience. The pheomelanin issues around the face and hackles will have to stabilized but cream is not and will not be an exact color. There will be small variations in how it appears. There won't always be a small amount of cream based birds... I feel that time may be sooner than later but it will be inevitable as that is what the standard calls for.

 

[blackbirds13]

Another angle is that - while we were all thinking that perhaps Punnett was color-blind --when he was calling the eggs blue - and others were saying blue-green-olive, it wasn't until TheTropix pointed out in his egg shell color paper that he included blue, green and olive in his blue category and thus was talking about the blue-egg gene.

We couldn't understand how Punnett would call the color of the hen's body as only silver gray when clearly the hens are not that. Once again we could be mis-understanding Punnett. This is especially clear when we read the quotes that TheTropix found about Punnetts putting browns and grays together.
c
It seems that it must be irrefutable that if the Cream Legbar has Cream it must therefore be a gold based bird. Since Silver is a dominant gene - any silver will cover up gold and hence cream. In the UK it is very possible that in the attempt to strengthen the breed some silver genetics got introduced.


as GD26 stated we have a chance not to replicate any errors that may have crept in over there.

We must remember the standardization of the Cream Legbar came years after is was created. In my research and conversations they were more interested in the general aspects of the bird for Autosexing and productive blue eggs. The small issues we are discussing came after. I am not a fan of trying to suppose what someone was thinking beyond the words that they used but the way the British write there standards allows for more variations than we do and that may simply be why there is the range in egg color and a lack of a 'standard' blue.

There is a definite difference between the gold and cream girls when it comes to overall body speckling. The cream girls are simply more gray in tone and do not have the same warm tones of the golden birds.

 

[blackbirds13]

I have been reading Brian Reeders books and articles and started Davies book on The Theory and Practice of Breeding to Type.

If I understand Reeder the hens hackles can vary in the areas at the top of the skull, around the face and at the bottom of the hackles… all areas I have found either are more or less red enhanced in my birds. Birds without the red enhancers around the face appear more silver but they are not Silver in the genetic sense. They are simply barred and ig/ig cream with a lack of visual Pheomelanin that would redden these areas (diluted or lacking I am not sure). Too much red enhancers genetically and the crest will probably have the chestnut tones within or maybe it’s just the presence of Autosomal Pheomelanin once the sex-linked Pheomelanin is diluted (guessing here). Maybe it’s too many Eumelanic enhancers that may be what is creating the very dark crests some birds have. I have one golden hen that produces very dark crests. This Eumelanin may be why Niclandia encourages using them for breeding as they will enhance the male barring, especially in the breast.

“On the female, the most obvious area of sex-linked pheomelanin (what we are calling gold) is the hackle, where s+ layers over Aph on most of the hackle (just as it does in the male). The area of the head and hackle with the least expression of s+ is the upper head, the ring of feathers around the face and the lower edges of the hackle down the front of the neck. (I wonder if this is the reason some hens appear more or less red/chestnut in these areas) On the female, the entire back and cushion, much of the shoulder and the wing also express s+ layered over Aph (so maybe affected by the barring and double dose of cream will definitely cool this warm tone)”

“First, it is important to understand that dilute has a strong effect on sex-linked pheomelanin but has very little effect on Aph. ” (so other enhancers of dilutes may be present/absent? Do the silver looking hens lack the autosomal coloring that underlies the sex linked pheomelanin or are we talking about a mahogany enhancer???)


“Dilute reduces the concentration of sex-linked gold (s+). The area of greatest dilution is the lower hackle, where sex-linked pheomelanin is most concentrated in the hackles of both males and females. The upper hackle has a lesser concentration of s+ and is not diluted to the same extent as the lower hackle.”
This may account for why some birds appear golder in the upper hackle but less so in the lower hackle as greater dilution can happen there. This could mean that those hens may carry a single ig gene (just guessing here)

The greatest effect of Autosomal Pheomelanin Reeder states is demonstrated in its fullest saturation in the breast which is Salmon in the female and masked by Eumelanin in the males. He states that
“it is not affected by the S/s+ allele, except when ap+/ap+ is present, as it remains in reddish tones even when S is present. The breast is salmon, though heterozygosity or absence of Ap (Ap/ap+ or ap+/ap+) will create variation in the tone of the breast, as will certain diluters or intensifiers….even when other genes are present which may obscure the allele, the breast of the e+ hens always remain pheomelanic”.
He goes on to state that the shade may be slightly different with extreme gene modification but will have some obvious differentiation from the rest of the body regardless.

There will be other diluters and ehancers that play a part also ...

These are some of the things I have been thinking about as I read and re-read the texts.