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Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection
- Thread starter redchicken9
- Start date
Here is what I've been looking for..
post # 14
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/846610/any-suggestions-on-how-to-solve-our-frostbite-problem/10
post # 14
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/846610/any-suggestions-on-how-to-solve-our-frostbite-problem/10
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awwww! so cute.
- Nov 22, 2011
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Changing a standard re: the comb size is more of an aesthetic issue or at most a slight reduction or increase in cooling ability or frostbite potential. Changing a chicken's purpose from excellence in one area i.e. egg laying OR meat production, to dual purpose reduces the quality of both functions. That is a more significant change as it changes weights and shape/outline. Where would the additional meat be? Breast? Legs? Thighs? Loin/Saddle?
I *think* we can all agree that the LEGbar (Cream, Gold or Silver) was/is based on the Leghorn. And the Leghorn is well known as an excellent layer, not a dual purpose chicken. In the UK the size of the Cream Legbar was set 60 more or less years ago at 2.70-3.40kg (6-7lb) for cocks and 2-2.70kg (4-6lb). Since the APA requires one ideal weight instead of a range, 7 lbs was selected for cocks and 6 lbs for hens in the U.S. These weights are the high side of the British weight range and already larger than the SOP weights for the American Leghorn at 6 lbs for cocks and 4.5 lbs for hens. If that isn't large enough for some, the APA gives a pass for the first pound over SOP weight and deducts 2 points for every pound over that (see page 30 of the 2010 SOP) for American, English and Mediterranean breeds. Re-writing the current draft standard would not be necessary for those who wish to breed and show CLs in the 8-10 lb range.
Having a Standard of Perfection is the blueprint for the breed, what the IDEAL example should be, keeping in mind that no bird is perfect. However, the ideal must be attainable. I plan to weigh my CL this weekend (6 month old) and again at one year to see where my flock falls in relation to the proposed SOP weights. I suspect they will be slightly below or pretty close to those numbers, which works just fine for me. As for combs, I haven't bred enough Legbars (or Swedish Flower hens, another "tassel" crested breed with a straight comb) to know if it is even possible to have a perfectly straight comb with a decent sized crest. There must be a reason that the majority of crested breeds (Polish, Houdan, Sultan, Silkie, etc.) have 'V' or walnut shaped combs. I like my cockerel's comb even though he has a slight fold in the front and I don't mind a point or two deduction. Splits and side sprigs are general disqualifications in all breeds. As for size, the APA SOP defines size in relation to the proportions of the breed (see page 28 2010 edition).
Thanks Laingcroft--
My 2-years old (todya's his birthday) CL rooster weighs 5 1/2 pounds. And my hens hover on the below side of 4#.
Once I had a 4 pound Golden Comet that produced Jumbo or Extra Large eggs daily for 200-days in a row, took a day off and then started laying again. Quite the clutch, I would say. Small chickens can lay big eggs on less feed. There are a lot of benefits to smaller birds. They take less space, they require less feed.
At the Bluebonnet Classic Poultry show last Saturday over 1/2 the exhibit hall was Bantam breeds I would guess, which kind of surprised me. The Standard chickens there were very large examples of their breeds - the size of small turkeys...IMO. I have also heard that bigger birds if there is a choice between two that are nearly identical win at the shows. GaryDean26-was there -- GaryDean- do you think that it was about 1/2 Bantams? -- If the trend is toward smaller breeds - maybe we are outsizing by going for the top end of the British SOP - besides being a mismatch to our existing chickens - I would be interested in what other peoples roosters and hens weigh and their ages. I have some 2-week olds that are weighing in a 4-5 ounces...which I think is huge. My weighing accuraacy diminished because they are too heavy for my egg scale now -in just two weeks. They were 1.2 and 1.4 ounces when take out of the incubator..... whMarans had a really good idea about tracking weights - and there is a form on the CL website where you can enter weights - I think it goes up to 2-years old. Trouble is, once entered on the form it requires going directly to the spreadsheet to add weights as they age...but we are managing that OK. If anyone has interest in accumulating data- there is a place where it can be shared and late when we have some amount we can analyze it.
It's interesting too, that people with concern of frostbite really need a smaller comb, and those with need for heat dispersion benefit from a larger comb. With our 115-degrees and strings of days over 100 here, the big comb is a benefit, but aesthetically, I prefer smaller combs. I guess that is one of the places that your chosen breed needs to match your environment. The neck hackle feathers were so thick at one time, I couldn't dig down to the skin with a clear path to put a pour on wormer on the back of the rooster's neck...
ETA looked at some older info and the GC was 4 pounds or 4 pounds 2 ounces or so....
My 2-years old (todya's his birthday) CL rooster weighs 5 1/2 pounds. And my hens hover on the below side of 4#.
Once I had a 4 pound Golden Comet that produced Jumbo or Extra Large eggs daily for 200-days in a row, took a day off and then started laying again. Quite the clutch, I would say. Small chickens can lay big eggs on less feed. There are a lot of benefits to smaller birds. They take less space, they require less feed.
At the Bluebonnet Classic Poultry show last Saturday over 1/2 the exhibit hall was Bantam breeds I would guess, which kind of surprised me. The Standard chickens there were very large examples of their breeds - the size of small turkeys...IMO. I have also heard that bigger birds if there is a choice between two that are nearly identical win at the shows. GaryDean26-was there -- GaryDean- do you think that it was about 1/2 Bantams? -- If the trend is toward smaller breeds - maybe we are outsizing by going for the top end of the British SOP - besides being a mismatch to our existing chickens - I would be interested in what other peoples roosters and hens weigh and their ages. I have some 2-week olds that are weighing in a 4-5 ounces...which I think is huge. My weighing accuraacy diminished because they are too heavy for my egg scale now -in just two weeks. They were 1.2 and 1.4 ounces when take out of the incubator..... whMarans had a really good idea about tracking weights - and there is a form on the CL website where you can enter weights - I think it goes up to 2-years old. Trouble is, once entered on the form it requires going directly to the spreadsheet to add weights as they age...but we are managing that OK. If anyone has interest in accumulating data- there is a place where it can be shared and late when we have some amount we can analyze it.
It's interesting too, that people with concern of frostbite really need a smaller comb, and those with need for heat dispersion benefit from a larger comb. With our 115-degrees and strings of days over 100 here, the big comb is a benefit, but aesthetically, I prefer smaller combs. I guess that is one of the places that your chosen breed needs to match your environment. The neck hackle feathers were so thick at one time, I couldn't dig down to the skin with a clear path to put a pour on wormer on the back of the rooster's neck...
ETA looked at some older info and the GC was 4 pounds or 4 pounds 2 ounces or so....
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Yes...about half of the facility was Bantam breeds. I always have to check out the Black Breasted Red OEG Bantams at the show to remind my self how small they are. That is was I raised for 4 years growing up.
As far a the show room goes, yes Bantams are quite popular. My mother never got used to the 30-35 Grams eggs in the four years that I raised EOGB though. Getting a 32.5 gram egg from a 1# hen as opposed to a 65 gram egg from a 4# hens is really nice for the food conversion rate in a small back yard flock. You get twice the egg for the feed bill but bantam egg are not catching on. People are used to the 65 gram egg and that is what the demand is for. People are cautious of the feed bill though. They don't want to feed a 6# hen if a 4# hen will lay bigger eggs and more of them all on less feed. The backyard city flocks are where the demand for colored eggs is and most of them don't process chickens for meat to a bigger bird can be a draw back to them. My original plan (pre-Proposed APA SOP) was for 5-1/2 lbs hens and 7 lbs cocks. That is a little larger bird than a Leghorn, but not too big for backyard city flocks.
I also am toying with a less flighty bird which would be better for a backyard city flock IMO. While most of my flock roosts in the 5' high rafters, my main breeding hen has shorter wings and can't fly up to the rafters. Working towards a less flight birds is in the back of my mind every time weight is considered too. The slightly larger hen will help produce a less flighty birds.
The Cream Legbar is a good bird for free range flocks too and I feel that being larger than a Leghorn makes it more sturdy and well suited for that. I don't see a market for Meat Birds that lay blue eggs though. Those that eat there culls have a little more meat on a Legbar but, if they are looking for meat birds they probably don't care if it lays a pretty egg. So...the dual purpose aspect is out for me. For me the Legbar is laying breed first and foremost. I see a lot more potential for a Bantam Cream Legbar than a Dual Purpose Legbar, since bantams would be popular for show and possibly in a limited number of backyard flocks that are willing to convert over to banty eggs.
P.S. My F1 Group will complete there first year of laying in a month, so I started some preliminary tally's last night since the first hens is back in lay after a 6-1/2 week molt (she is the only Legbar in a pen of Marans, so I know down to the egg when she stopped laying in November and when she started back up 6 days ago. My flock average is looking like it will be right around 200 eggs/hen in the first year. Only one out of every eight hens went broody in the F1 group as opposed to 100% in the F0 group (which only average 165 eggs after taking extra time off to brood chicks in the fall).
As far a the show room goes, yes Bantams are quite popular. My mother never got used to the 30-35 Grams eggs in the four years that I raised EOGB though. Getting a 32.5 gram egg from a 1# hen as opposed to a 65 gram egg from a 4# hens is really nice for the food conversion rate in a small back yard flock. You get twice the egg for the feed bill but bantam egg are not catching on. People are used to the 65 gram egg and that is what the demand is for. People are cautious of the feed bill though. They don't want to feed a 6# hen if a 4# hen will lay bigger eggs and more of them all on less feed. The backyard city flocks are where the demand for colored eggs is and most of them don't process chickens for meat to a bigger bird can be a draw back to them. My original plan (pre-Proposed APA SOP) was for 5-1/2 lbs hens and 7 lbs cocks. That is a little larger bird than a Leghorn, but not too big for backyard city flocks.
I also am toying with a less flighty bird which would be better for a backyard city flock IMO. While most of my flock roosts in the 5' high rafters, my main breeding hen has shorter wings and can't fly up to the rafters. Working towards a less flight birds is in the back of my mind every time weight is considered too. The slightly larger hen will help produce a less flighty birds.
The Cream Legbar is a good bird for free range flocks too and I feel that being larger than a Leghorn makes it more sturdy and well suited for that. I don't see a market for Meat Birds that lay blue eggs though. Those that eat there culls have a little more meat on a Legbar but, if they are looking for meat birds they probably don't care if it lays a pretty egg. So...the dual purpose aspect is out for me. For me the Legbar is laying breed first and foremost. I see a lot more potential for a Bantam Cream Legbar than a Dual Purpose Legbar, since bantams would be popular for show and possibly in a limited number of backyard flocks that are willing to convert over to banty eggs.
P.S. My F1 Group will complete there first year of laying in a month, so I started some preliminary tally's last night since the first hens is back in lay after a 6-1/2 week molt (she is the only Legbar in a pen of Marans, so I know down to the egg when she stopped laying in November and when she started back up 6 days ago. My flock average is looking like it will be right around 200 eggs/hen in the first year. Only one out of every eight hens went broody in the F1 group as opposed to 100% in the F0 group (which only average 165 eggs after taking extra time off to brood chicks in the fall).
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This is true, with qualifications (there is an asterisk that mentions until disqualification weight is achieved).
On page 33 of the 2010 APA SOP, under the main topic Disqualifications, Weights: 'Any bird...that deviates more than 20% either up or down from the weight listed for its breed, sex and age should be disqualified."
Example: weight ideal of 7 lbs for a cock--> No points off for an 8 lb bird, 2 points off for a 6lb bird, weight disqualification at 20% of 7 lbs over or under- .2x7=1.4 pounds. So DQ if 8.5 or more, or 5.5 or less. I am sure there is some wiggle room on the DQ's, but I am willing to bet that if it came in at 9 pounds they would DQ it.
Oh - and another "breeder's tip" that I'm not sure had had any focus was information that I got from reading Sigrid van Dort's writing...and that is that the wild-type chicks down with chipmunk stripes will tell you the color of the adult: white stripe = silver, brown or stripe = gold and Cream stripe = cream-- so keep an eye on those wild-type stripes on the chipmunk down....
Yeah, I agree with dretd and Laingcroft - entire bone structure on up would need to change to make the CL a big meat bird, probably not the demand there as for a backyard bird or just all around chicken. And meat-bird wasn't the original intent - other than as GD26 said edible culls.
Someone, was it FlyingMonkey was looking into Bantam CLs - Hey - you never know what the food fads would do. Pickled quail eggs are sold in jars at Buckee's beside the highways so I am told, and quail eggs are a delicacy in Japan, even put on top of a particular type of sushi -raw egg. Could be that a plate of blue-shelled petite hard boiled eggs could be a big hit at a dinner party, I thought about that looking at the little pullet eggs collecting a lot, hard boiling and serving them...They came in at about 1.24 oz.
Yeah, I agree with dretd and Laingcroft - entire bone structure on up would need to change to make the CL a big meat bird, probably not the demand there as for a backyard bird or just all around chicken. And meat-bird wasn't the original intent - other than as GD26 said edible culls.
Someone, was it FlyingMonkey was looking into Bantam CLs - Hey - you never know what the food fads would do. Pickled quail eggs are sold in jars at Buckee's beside the highways so I am told, and quail eggs are a delicacy in Japan, even put on top of a particular type of sushi -raw egg. Could be that a plate of blue-shelled petite hard boiled eggs could be a big hit at a dinner party, I thought about that looking at the little pullet eggs collecting a lot, hard boiling and serving them...They came in at about 1.24 oz.
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the Color of the Chimpmunk Stripes is no indication of its final outcome or sex linked s allele(s+ for gold and S for silver) what you need to pay attention is the Overall chick down tone... while gold based chicks can have silver stripes their body down color will be orange/chestnut while the silver chicks will also have silver stripes but their overall body tone will be yellow or pale yellow... here a few Welsummer chicks(wildtype e+ gold s+)
Quote:
Red Dorkins,... Red enhanced Wildtype chicks... you can see they have chestnutt chipmunk tone but their back stripes remain yellow/cream
the Color of the Chimpmunk Stripes is no indication of its final outcome or sex linked s allele(s+ for gold and S for silver) what you need to pay attention is the Overall chick down tone... while gold based chicks can have silver stripes their body down color will be orange/chestnut while the silver chicks will also have silver stripes but their overall body tone will be yellow or pale yellow... here a few Welsummer chicks(wildtype e+ gold s+)
Quote:
Red Dorkins,... Red enhanced Wildtype chicks... you can see they have chestnutt chipmunk tone but their back stripes remain yellow/cream
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