Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[nicalandia]

OK, without full answer, but think GaryDean26 knows more. Research on chickens by Punnett went on for years. The one paper here linked is dated 1940. The gold Campine and the barred Rock were crossed in 1929, which made the Cambar. After which my history knowledge is slim. Punnett, I believe, made a dozen or so autosexing breeds. In the BPS, there are gold and silver Legbars, with cream Legbar having a dose of Araucana blood to give it its crest and egg color.

ok, I just want to be sure that at some point a Cream light brown leghorn was used..

 

[MnMPoultry]

I'm not thinking well, two quick thoughts, the last for a bit, but won't white lose the autosex aspect? Is there any chance cream legbars have been crossed with gold legbars for the coloration we see? I'd have to go through the male description point by point, but some things are similar. Female plumage is very near to mine. Also no plates for these birds within the BPS (c'est domage!).

AFAIK, and what is apparent to me in the birds I hatched, there is still the ability to sex at hatch the "whites", but I would need input from more people who have hatched them. The males, I believe it appears, still have the head spot, and the 'munk striping is still vaguely visible. I have a ways to go (4 months) before I start trying to pull more "white" chicks out of these. Someone who has had these "whites" thrown in their hatches correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[MnMPoultry]

One More Thing to note:

If "Cream" is not the single unalterable color standard, Cream Legbar Club should not apply as a club name, nor as a breed name. IMHO

 

[nicalandia]

One More Thing to note:

If "Cream" is not the single unalterable color standard, Cream Legbar Club should not apply as a club name, nor as a breed name. IMHO

but. but andalusian blues are not blues, lavender does not look lavender at all, I know what you meant though, cream on chicken color means a lemon color... the thing is Cream and Barring can take a told on a natural gold bird(not enhaced by mahogany or autosomal red)

 

[MnMPoultry]

Lavender is a very misused term, anyways. It's Self Blue, but that's not part of our discussion.

I'm just saying start it off right, without a color in the breed name, so it's not a case of "Cream Legbars" aren't "Cream" on down the line.

As far as I'm concerned, from a genetic and naming view, a Legbar isn't even a Legbar anymore, but it's a little late for that one, I think.

 

[nicalandia]

from a genetic and naming view, a Legbar isn't even a Legbar anymore, but it's a little late for that one, I think.

can you please elavorate more on this(the genetic part)..

and to further explain about what I said(cream and barring can take a told on a none enhanced bird).. the Crele Dutch below is an example of that(all wildtype except for barring)

Crele is best when intermediate.

This is the pure father of the creles above:

 

[MnMPoultry]

As the name Legbar implies, Barred Leghorn, or Brown Leghorn x Barred Rock (To create the autosexing production type bird) according to the history I know. Throw in British Araucana to get the crest and blue eggs, as I understand it, so we are no longer a Legbar, technically. It's now an autosexing crested blue egglayer, far removed from a Leghorn, or Barred Leghorn for that matter. Just because the UK SOP adopted it as the "Crested Cream" Legbar, doesn't necessarily mean that's what it is and should be.

Legbar, by definition, is a Barred Leghorn, as Punnett intended it to be. See the following.


Quote: He made numerous crosses made between Barred Plymouth Rocks, which in the interwar period was a very popular utility egg laying breed. (Our modern egg-laying hybrids had yet to be developed.)
in 1943 the Autosexing Breeds Association was formed and various breeds developed - each breed was named according to its cross, but ending in "bar" from the barred feather parent
Brussbar from the Brown Sussex
Cambar from the Campine
Dorbar from the Dorking
Legbar from the Leghorn
Marbar from the Marans
Welbar from the Welsummer and so on.

Around 1932 the Legbar was the second of these breeds to be created at Cambridge Agricultural Research Department They were from a Brown Leghorn cock (gold sex linked) crossed with a Barred Plymouth Rock hen (silver sex linked) From this cross any progeny without barring were discarded, the remaining were selected for Leghorn type and mated together.

The pale coloured males (carrying two barred genes) and the crele coloured females were kept, and all dark (crele) male chicks were discarded. In order to increase numbers and bloodlines these Gold Legbar males could be crossed back to brown Leghorn females, and from this cross half produced dark crele males which again were culled.

 

[MnMPoultry]

Again, however, my argument isn't technically against proposed colors and varieties, yet the nomenclature being used for the breed and club. Might as well ruffle the feathers at the beginning, rather than later.

 

[nicalandia]

Legbar, by definition, is a Barred Leghorn, as Punnett intended it to be. See the following.

But now Legbars are a breed of its own, there are other autosexing leghorns out there(crele/silver crele leghorns) now I´m not against any outcross to leghorns to improve utility traits(egg size, rate of lay)

 

[MnMPoultry]

Correct, they are, but is the crested version we all have close enough to a Legbar to be considered a Legbar?

Breeding back to Leghorn to increase Utility, great, but you're going to have personality issues (flighty), egg coloration issues (keeping the blue egg gene), crest issues (crested to non-crested)... You're looking at a couple of generations each outcross just for these things. Not to mention the barring will also give you fewer offspring with desired traits to back-cross to an original. Not saying it isn't a good idea, just something that needs to be considered before it's done.

I'm just throwing issues out there that may or may not come up in the future.