Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[GaryDean26]

...if there is a unknown and Undocumented gene darkening the wildtype chick down on this birds, seems recessive in nature and needs to be cull on site,

Punnett lived in an era that didn't have gene mapping, but the level of organization and documentation of their research is some of the best out there.

One of their research projects was on the Legbar down color. No name was given to the gene that causes the light and dark down color, but my theory is that is could be similar the gene that gives the light and dark down color in the Jearhon Breed. Those genetics are also unknown too, but two distinct varieties are based on that unknown gene.

If my memory serves me well only about 3% of the chicken genome has been mapped. That leaves around 97% that is unknown and undocumented. Only the major genes have names (are know). Punnett's research proved the dark down type to be dominant. The Light down type like seen in Babymake6's photos of her scissor beaked cockerel is recessive.

I see no need to cull for dark down type. It has been part of the breed for over 80 years. I have kept a photo progression of the light and dark down type in my original stock. I completed the comparison this summer and would gladly send the file to anyone that provides me an email address (sorry can't send aPDF attachment through PM's on the BYC. I need an email address).

 

[nicalandia]

Nicalandia,

You are going to have to explain yourself. We are trying to define definitions to understand and adapt an SOP.

Your explanation of the differences between silver, gold, golden make perfect sense, but I know that many of us are completely lost on you conclusions on sexing Legbars so can you please clarify that point without using any genetics so the verbiage that would be relevant to the SOP can be captured.

That being said can you please comment on the three (3) cockerels and two pullets (2) that Babymakes6 posted. What is the minimum required for those five chicks to be autosexing? What colors and markings distinguish the males from the females. Which chicks have the best markings and color for autosexing? What directions should an SOP give on down color and markings?

Also can you comment on the Body Type in the British SOP or on the two examples that I posted for discussion on the wedge body type? Your input would be great in that area since it is one of the most important area in any breed (as can be seen by the point distribution for judging the CLB that Redchicken9's recently post).

my answer is very simple, cull the Dark males, breed only the light ones, the dot on the head of the hens is really up to you, Rhodebars which have a dark brown wildypte(e+ mahogany) have Light males and Dark wildtype looking females without headspot(Dark down thanks to Mahogany, on male this is dluted by homozygous barring) this right here(Autosexing Rhodebars) are the most Autosexable chicks I have seen... Why is it really up to you? well if you follow my advise and only breed from the Light males you are going to distinguish from males(light diluted) from females(wildtype with headspot) because females wont be as diluted, this works for other autosexing breeds, but if it were for me, I would cull those hens aswell...


here Rhodebars(from GFF) chicks, see how hard is the hens down? clearly distinguishable from the males Light Diluted one

My first rhodebar eggs hatched today and got a pair. pretty cool!

Golden Cuckoo Marans(ER plus Barring) even if the females have the headspot, the Homozygous Barred males are much much lighter
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/52655856





I will not be comenting on the SOP because I'm not well versed on this aspect of poultry

 

[ChicKat]

I don't know if the cresting color needs to be discussed or not, but the dark black crests are oviously not to standard.

I don't have any knowlege of the definitions used by APA for body types, but did look for photos to use as examples to be discussed.

Is this RIR wedge shaped? It is deeper (distance from back to keel bone) at the tail than at the sholders. I am told that laying breeds all are deeper at the tail.

http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/7/7f/7f9b0543_P2070078.jpeg

How about this BCM? Is it wedge shaped. It is narrower at the tail than at the the sholders. I think that for for laying breeds you want a wide body at the tail. Pinched tails won't be good layers. The same is true for dual purpose birds. I think that some of the meat birds can have pinched tails as it can make for a body type with more breast meat.

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/21719698/sn/382424198/name/099.jpg

Other photos and comments are welcome.

Thank you for these pictures!!!!! I was wondering exactly if the wedge-shape was going to be horizontal or vertical...these photos illustrate my questions. I got some information from the APA and haven't had time to look it over yet (DVD) maybe some insight will be there...or Walt may come by and clarify the term in the way it is used in judging.

 

[nicalandia]

I see no need to cull for dark down type.

I never said cull all chicks with dark down(see Rhodebar) just cull the dark males, keep the light males

 

[ChicKat]

I breed Welsummers and the SOP for them has salmon colored breast and gold hackles with penciling. The colors gold and salmon are up to interpretation - some breeders like more orange gold and others more yellow gold. Some like a darker salmon, some lighter. The Welsummer breeders like the broad range because it allows breeders to have traits that identify their specific lines. That being said, I like the idea of using a standardized color chart for comparison as long as a range of color is provided, not just one shade.


I agree that egg color needs to be made an important issue, it can be judged separate from the birds in competition just like Maran eggs. I think too many breeds have lost egg color and production when breeders solely focus on coloring - Marans, Ameraucana, Barnevelder are all examples of this. Just my opinion, but If a backyard chicken collector gets this breed, its going to be for 4 reasons, feather pattern, egg color, production level and the crest. These are the obvious factors that are easy for non breeders to identify.

faykokoWV - Hooray for the Welsummers people -- that allow for individual differences..... Wouldn't it be great if our Crested Legbars could also include some variations for the exact same reason that specific lines could be identified and each may have a more colorful or more pale rooster, for example...but the egg-laying, behavior, body-type, and autosexing apply to everyone's lines.....

So a variation within reason -- would be such a great thing.

I have to say too, I have never heard of anyone with our type of chickens (i'm now calling crested legbars) having any problem sexing the chicks at a very young age - like once they are fluffed....There were some early on that we were asking each other about....but now it seems pretty obvious.

ETA - are welsummers standards online for review/reference? And yes...I don't think it would be wise to pick just one color and say -- you can only have this color and the rest of the poultry is ousted..... For example if we said everyone's egg color must be A1 on the Ameraucana or Araucana egg color chart.... It would be selecting on only one trait at the expense of others. Not a good idea IMO.

 

[redchicken9]

Been wanting to post! Hectic week. I've had sick kid for a week. Was down to the wire on taxes yesterday (ours). Celebrated 15 years of marriage end of last week (oh, yeah!).

Thanks all of you for posting. ChicKat might need to lead us into a discussion on color language, how about after form? We had a photography offer from JamesBWood; I'm sure it'll come in handy. It's excellent when there are newer folks (newer to me) like FaykokoWV, babymakes6, and KPenley add in. It all adds to the discussion whether you're asking the question, or answering it, or just putting out a thought. Blackbirds, Nicalandia, GaryDean26 you all have a lot of knowledge. Thank-you for sharing it. It's a growing and learning experience for most if not all of us. This is truly a new type of poultry for us to get our heads around. Mostly we're trying to hash out our knowledge to put forward a standard and pick up "eyes" "genetics" "look" and "values" in terms of the breed, cream legbars, along the way. Thanks for being here!

Sigh, started this post 2-3 hours ago.

Furthering the discussion on color and form is excellent. Let's stick with form for a bit. Talking about the form of wedge. Do people think that a wedge is a shape like a piece of pie or like a wedge you'd shim under a door, more like a trapazoid? Do you look at this from the side or above? The BPS discuss the form of the back and body under Type. APA utilizes Back or even Body and Fluff to discuss. Writing the below is just to illustrate, some language. What I am thinking is to look at a more common bird that is part of the make up like Plymouth Rock or Leghorn and compare to the cream legbar. I put some shapes in bold, just to think about. As a side note, I've seen Asil /Aseel and the heart shape makes sense to me, but some of the others I need to think or visualize better.

From directly above how do you describe your cream legbar male? What other ways do you describe his back, breast, etc. Most of the below is truncated for discussion on back, breast, and body shape. Will post a photo of a male from above and front and side by mid-morning tomorrow, if that helps everyone!



Cream Legbar Type: Body wedge shaped, wide at the shoulders and narrowing slightly to root of tail. Back long, flat and sloping slightly to the tail. Breast prominent, and breast bone straight. . . .

BPS: "Type" as described for some male birds.

Leghorn: Body wide at shoulders and narrowing slightly to root of tail.


Plymouth Rock: Body large, deep and compact, evenly balanced and symmetrical, broad, the keel bone long and straight. Back broad and of medium length.

Asil: Viewed from above, the body should appear heart shaped, with broad shoulders tapering to a fairly narrow but very well developed stern, strong at the root of the tail.

Rhode Island Red: Body deep broad and long. The keel bone long, straight and extending well forward and back, giving the body an oblong look, rather than square.

APA: "Back"


Leghorn: Rather long, moderately broad its entire length, slightly rounded, with a slight slope down from shoulders to center of back, and rising from center with a concave sweep to tail.

Rhode Island Red: Long, moderately broad its entire length, fairly deep, carried horizontally.

Plymouth Rock: Rather long, broad its entire lenght, flat at shoulders; nearly horizontal from neck to saddle, then showing a slight concave sweep to tail.



APA: "Body and Fluff"

Leghorn: Body - moderately long, moderately broad its entire length, slightly rounded at shoulders; slightly sloping downward from shoulders to center of back, then rising in a gradually increasing concave sweep to tail.

Rhode Island Red: Body - long, broad, moderately deep, straight, extending well forward, giving body an oblong appearance.

Plymouth Rock: Body - rather long, broad, deep: keel extending well to front and rear of legs.

 

[fowlman01]

I don't know if the cresting color needs to be discussed or not, but the dark black crests are oviously not to standard.

I don't have any knowlege of the definitions used by APA for body types, but did look for photos to use as examples to be discussed.

Is this RIR wedge shaped? It is deeper (distance from back to keel bone) at the tail than at the sholders. I am told that laying breeds all are deeper at the tail.

http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/7/7f/7f9b0543_P2070078.jpeg

How about this BCM? Is it wedge shaped. It is narrower at the tail than at the the sholders. I think that for for laying breeds you want a wide body at the tail. Pinched tails won't be good layers. The same is true for dual purpose birds. I think that some of the meat birds can have pinched tails as it can make for a body type with more breast meat.

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/21719698/sn/382424198/name/099.jpg

Other photos and comments are welcome.

RIR's are brick shaped and BCM's are more of a bowl shape. The CLB's are a completely different body form. Pinched tails are usually a sign of an unthrifty bird. Goodlaying breeds are generally slim birds like Leghorns in body type.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

faykokoWV - Hooray for the Welsummers people -- that allow for individual differences..... Wouldn't it be great if our Crested Legbars could also include some variations for the exact same reason that specific lines could be identified and each may have a more colorful or more pale rooster, for example...but the egg-laying, behavior, body-type, and autosexing apply to everyone's lines.....

So a variation within reason -- would be such a great thing.

I have to say too, I have never heard of anyone with our type of chickens (i'm now calling crested legbars) having any problem sexing the chicks at a very young age - like once they are fluffed....There were some early on that we were asking each other about....but now it seems pretty obvious.

ETA - are welsummers standards online for review/reference? And yes...I don't think it would be wise to pick just one color and say -- you can only have this color and the rest of the poultry is ousted..... For example if we said everyone's egg color must be A1 on the Ameraucana or Araucana egg color chart.... It would be selecting on only one trait at the expense of others. Not a good idea IMO.

The APA is very specific about the color of Wellies. Maybe some keepers of Wellies don't care what color they are, but the SOP is clear and the judges understand it. There is always slight differences in parti colored birds, but that is nature and those differences need to be subtle to fit with the Standard color description. The slight differences are usually found in females.

If you want these in the APA SOP you have to decide on color. If you have a range of colors that are acceptable....why have a Standard for color? The crest ....if in the description will have to have a color description. Every part of the bird needs to have an accurate color description with very little leeway in shades.

The APA will requires that all lines of CL's use the same color description. This is why it is good to start on this now if you want this breed accepted by the APA.

Walt

 

[babymakes6]

Been wanting to post! Hectic week. I've had sick kid for a week. Was down to the wire on taxes yesterday (ours). Celebrated 15 years of marriage end of last week (oh, yeah!).

Thanks all of you for posting. ChicKat might need to lead us into a discussion on color language, how about after form? We had a photography offer from JamesBWood; I'm sure it'll come in handy. It's excellent when there are newer folks (newer to me) like FaykokoWV, babymakes6, and KPenley add in. It all adds to the discussion whether you're asking the question, or answering it, or just putting out a thought. Blackbirds, Nicalandia, GaryDean26 you all have a lot of knowledge. Thank-you for sharing it. It's a growing and learning experience for most if not all of us. This is truly a new type of poultry for us to get our heads around. Mostly we're trying to hash out our knowledge to put forward a standard and pick up "eyes" "genetics" "look" and "values" in terms of the breed, cream legbars, along the way. Thanks for being here!

Sigh, started this post 2-3 hours ago.

Furthering the discussion on color and form is excellent. Let's stick with form for a bit. Talking about the form of wedge. Do people think that a wedge is a shape like a piece of pie or like a wedge you'd shim under a door, more like a trapazoid? Do you look at this from the side or above? The BPS discuss the form of the back and body under Type. APA utilizes Back or even Body and Fluff to discuss. Writing the below is just to illustrate, some language. What I am thinking is to look at a more common bird that is part of the make up like Plymouth Rock or Leghorn and compare to the cream legbar. I put some shapes in bold, just to think about. As a side note, I've seen Asil /Aseel and the heart shape makes sense to me, but some of the others I need to think or visualize better.

From directly above how do you describe your cream legbar male? What other ways do you describe his back, breast, etc. Most of the below is truncated for discussion on back, breast, and body shape. Will post a photo of a male from above and front and side by mid-morning tomorrow, if that helps everyone!



Cream Legbar Type: Body wedge shaped, wide at the shoulders and narrowing slightly to root of tail. Back long, flat and sloping slightly to the tail. Breast prominent, and breast bone straight. . . .

BPS: "Type" as described for some male birds.

Leghorn: Body wide at shoulders and narrowing slightly to root of tail.


Plymouth Rock: Body large, deep and compact, evenly balanced and symmetrical, broad, the keel bone long and straight. Back broad and of medium length.

Asil: Viewed from above, the body should appear heart shaped, with broad shoulders tapering to a fairly narrow but very well developed stern, strong at the root of the tail.

Rhode Island Red: Body deep broad and long. The keel bone long, straight and extending well forward and back, giving the body an oblong look, rather than square.

APA: "Back"


Leghorn: Rather long, moderately broad its entire length, slightly rounded, with a slight slope down from shoulders to center of back, and rising from center with a concave sweep to tail.

Rhode Island Red: Long, moderately broad its entire length, fairly deep, carried horizontally.

Plymouth Rock: Rather long, broad its entire lenght, flat at shoulders; nearly horizontal from neck to saddle, then showing a slight concave sweep to tail.



APA: "Body and Fluff"

Leghorn: Body - moderately long, moderately broad its entire length, slightly rounded at shoulders; slightly sloping downward from shoulders to center of back, then rising in a gradually increasing concave sweep to tail.

Rhode Island Red: Body - long, broad, moderately deep, straight, extending well forward, giving body an oblong appearance.

Plymouth Rock: Body - rather long, broad, deep: keel extending well to front and rear of legs.

Congratulations on 15 years of marriage! Our tenth is coming up on December 7.

I have been here from the beginning, but I am mostly reading and LEARNING! It is very interesting to see all the ideas being put out there. I would love to help, but not sure how I could. I do want to breed for quality rather than quantity.

 

[ChicKat]

The APA is very specific about the color of Wellies. Maybe some keepers of Wellies don't care what color they are, but the SOP is clear and the judges understand it. There is always slight differences in parti colored birds, but that is nature and those differences need to be subtle to fit with the Standard color description. The slight differences are usually found in females.

If you want these in the APA SOP you have to decide on color. If you have a range of colors that are acceptable....why have a Standard for color? The crest ....if in the description will have to have a color description. Every part of the bird needs to have an accurate color description with very little leeway in shades.

The APA will requires that all lines of CL's use the same color description. This is why it is good to start on this now if you want this breed accepted by the APA.

Walt

Thank You, Walt.........