Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[babymakes6]

I took the liberty of adding a few pictures for reference as well as moving some around to help with my review.
Here goes, posting my review in green:

This photo was the first I ever saw of a cream legbar hen. Thus it shaped my mental-image of the hens. One thing I didn't like about it was the length of the legs:

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=crea...w=152&start=0&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0,i:92

Here is a photo of "Robin" - this is the photo in the breeds section of www.Eggzy.net. The excellent people who keep eggzy up added Cream Legbars to the breed section when I requested a new egg color be added, along with the ability to add cream legbar eggs to the tally - so cream legbar needed to be added to the drop down menu of the eggs section.




The same photo is also used in the BYC listing where I entered cream legbar to end my frustration when I went to that database...and searched cream legbars. BTW if you click on the term "product" at the top of the column it will resort the database by alphabetical order...easer to find the breed you are looking for, than going by the popularity of the breed IMO.
It is designed to point to the legbar entry. Silverfox from the UK had already set up a section on legbars, and the info is there. --

So here are some photos of Robin.


Shape - Female

Comb: Single; large, deeply and evenly serrated with five to seven spikes, erect or dropping gracefully to the side without obscuring the eyes. (note: Leghorns describe their ideal comb as having the first point stand erect, would this be a good description for an ideal CL comb?). [Chickat]I wonder why we would add it- since we aren't talking Leghorns... I would leave this part of the SOP as is. Although Lebhorns are in their back ground...they aren't Leghorns... JMO (babymakes6)Her comb looks to be twisted or folded at the bottom-would that be a fault? The top of her comb "drops gracefully to the side."

Beak: Stout, point clear of the front of the comb, slightly curved. [chickat], yes (babymakes6)yes

Face: Smooth (not sure how to “nail” this, is it smooth or finely textured, clean cut, free from wrinkles, how do you describe what you see).[chickat] smooth - yes I am also unsure of this one-what all is considered the "face?"




Eyes: Large, bright, and prominent. Round in appearance. [chickat] - yes, Perhaps Robin has 'dreamy eyes' - IMO her face is just about the most serene and beautiful one I have seen on a cream legbar hen. -- I prefer this 'intelligent' look to the ones that appear to be perpetually startled - JMO - (and not like i would have a bias or anything. ;O) ) (babymakes6)yes-all Legbars seem to have bright, inquisitive eyes

Wattles: Medium in size, smooth, well-rounded, free from folds or wrinkles. Skin soft. [chickat] - the feathers are so dense--and soft and fulffy, that it is somewhat difficult to find the skin. The feathers are surprisingly soft when you pick them up. My Leghorn hybrid (Ideal 236) has a different feather feel, very crisp and slick in comparison. (babymakes6) Her wattles look good-well-rounded, smooth, and on the smaller side (would that be considered medium?)

A Hedemora hen has small wattles: (Picture from Greenfire Farms)

and a Leghorn hen has large wattles:

in the above pict at 22-weeks, both are panting because it was so hot that day...Robin had been digging in some moist dirt to make a dirt bath- hence the dirt on her beak.

Ear-lobes: Medium in size, oblong, pendent, smooth and free from folds, equally matched in size and shape.[chickat] - yes...not much of an earlobe fan (babymakes6) I moved this picture up because you can see her earlobes much better-her earlobes look good to me.


Crest: Small, tufted, affixed above the eyes at the forefront of the skull with feathers narrow that extend back towards the blade of the comb. (Please, there’s a need for a lot of comments on how to describe the crest, both male and female). [chickat] - My preference is for a crest that appears darker than any of the other feathering. I also prefer a crest that is trimmed-looking and not too poofy. Rather than the bouffant hair-style look, I prefer the ones that look like a little hat, except integrated. I think a definite but subtle crest is the most attractive. If you have a BYC 2012 calendar, then this months crest is way overkill. (great for Halloween though). I know that crest will be a big discussion point as redchicken9 stated. It is interesting how prominent their crests are as they are growing out...they look like punk-rockers with mowhawks...but then they settle into smooth refined crests as they grow older. (babymakes6) Her crest looks perfect to me, as far as shape. The Scar hens crests look more Polish-like. Legbars have a very distinct crest like no other bird I've seen.

Head: Medium in length, symmetrical, well balanced, and of fine quality. [chickat] - yes - I actually have no expertise in chicken head lengths.... (babymakes6) Her head is very fine, almost aristocratic.

Neck: Long and well covered with hackle feathers. [chickat] - this breed does have longer necks than my other chickens, and holds the head high. They are very graceful for that reason ...and when the sit down - especially the females they look so graceful - because they seem to keep their head at the same level....... (babymakes6)Yes-this description fits very well. The only difference I see in the two pictures below is that Robin is leaning slightly forward (walking?), so her head is forward and her tail is up. Her back looks a little bit shorter than the drawing also.

Robin was pretty young in the black and white picture..... different pose also - but shows the long neck.

Back: Moderately broad it’s entire length, long, with an even slope to the tail. Feathers moderately broad and of sufficient length to carry well up to tail. [chickat] - I would say the hens fit this category - and they have no lack of feathering. (babymakes6) Looks good-but back may be just a bit short.

Tail: Moderately long, carried at an angle of forty degrees (or 35?) above horizontal (see Punnett, text fig.1). Main tail feathers broad and overlapping.[chickat] - I think that tails exceed moderate, and that the tail angle often exceeds 40-degrees. What about y'all. At one point when my pair was growing up -- the hen's tail was much longer than the male's and I remember putting up a post to ask if others had seen that. If I have time to go through posts, I will see If I can come back with a link - but it probably is out there somewhere. (babymakes6) Tails are definitely long and full on every hen I've seen.

Wings: Large and carried close to the body without dropping. [chickat] - yes (babymakes6)yes

Breast: Prominent, well-developed, and carried forward. [chickat] -yes. Although the following picture is blurry and from June when they were 6-mos old approx... IT shows the crest, the barring in the tail..earlobes at 6-mos and comb and wattles. (babymakes6) yes-her shape really seems to fit Punnett's description quite well!




Before she went seriously broody...she would linger in the nest box---and it ws too hot to be indoors in July! This did give a good hackle, wattle, eye, earlobe and beak photo...... I would say heavily feathered.

There are several other face close ups -- left and right side, in the legbar contest entry. Tonight I will be back to see if I can dig up a link. :O)

 

[babymakes6]

Wow what a fantastic discussion we have had going on. I know at first I was one of the voices for an Americanized CL standard, but the more I study and read and discuss here the more I am moving to the consensus of adhering the the British Standard (with the obvious language changes, etc, and still dropping the olive eggs?). It is very heartening to hear those with experience saying it IS possible to get our birds where they need to be. As much work as it is going to be- it IS possible.

I received the Online Auction Color Chart yesterday in the mail, and WOW it is fantastic. It is such a fabulous resource I think EVERY chicken owner who wants to work on breeding and compare egg/feather colors long distance should get it. It will definitely be useful for our group here! Thank you ChicKat for finding this and bringing it to our attention. For reference for those who have already ordered this chart, the CL hatching eggs I received in the mail yesterday from Jordan Farm are color oac123. I was surprised they are on the green color page not the blue!

Rinda

I would be interested in one of the color charts, too, if they are still available.

 

[MnMPoultry]

I would be interested in one of the color charts, too, if they are still available.

Same here.

 

[GaryDean26]

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=crea...w=152&start=0&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0,i:92

Here is a photo of "Robin" - this is the photo in the breeds section of www.Eggzy.net. The excellent people who keep eggzy up added Cream Legbars to the breed section when I requested a new egg color be added, along with the ability to add cream legbar eggs to the tally - so cream legbar needed to be added to the drop down menu of the eggs section.




The same photo is also used in the BYC listing where I entered cream legbar to end my frustration when I went to that database...and searched cream legbars. BTW if you click on the term "product" at the top of the column it will resort the database by alphabetical order...easer to find the breed you are looking for, than going by the popularity of the breed IMO.
It is designed to point to the legbar entry. Silverfox from the UK had already set up a section on legbars, and the info is there. --

So here are some photos of Robin.


Shape - Female

Comb: Single; large, deeply and evenly serrated with five to seven spikes, erect or dropping gracefully to the side without obscuring the eyes. (note: Leghorns describe their ideal comb as having the first point stand erect, would this be a good description for an ideal CL comb?). [Chickat]I wonder why we would add it- since we aren't talking Leghorns... I would leave this part of the SOP as is. Although Lebhorns are in their back ground...they aren't Leghorns... JMO (babymakes6)Her comb looks to be twisted or folded at the bottom-would that be a fault? The top of her comb "drops gracefully to the side."
[GaryDean26] Yes, I remember seeing the first point up and other points alowed to flow to either side inother breeds descriiptions. I think that would be good.

Beak: Stout, point clear of the front of the comb, slightly curved. [chickat], yes (babymakes6)yes

Face: Smooth (not sure how to “nail” this, is it smooth or finely textured, clean cut, free from wrinkles, how do you describe what you see).[chickat] smooth - yes I am also unsure of this one-what all is considered the "face?"
[GaryDean26] I think Smooth is fine. Would have to check, but am pretty sure that wording is common in the APA descriptions for what we see. There are not beards or muffs which is about all else I rememeber listed in this section for other breeds. We are definatly beardless and muffless



Eyes: Large, bright, and prominent. Round in appearance. [chickat] - yes, Perhaps Robin has 'dreamy eyes' - IMO her face is just about the most serene and beautiful one I have seen on a cream legbar hen. -- I prefer this 'intelligent' look to the ones that appear to be perpetually startled - JMO - (and not like i would have a bias or anything. ;O) ) (babymakes6)yes-all Legbars seem to have bright, inquisitive eyes
[GaryDean26] Ya these are round.

Wattles: Medium in size, smooth, well-rounded, free from folds or wrinkles. Skin soft. [chickat] - the feathers are so dense--and soft and fulffy, that it is somewhat difficult to find the skin. The feathers are surprisingly soft when you pick them up. My Leghorn hybrid (Ideal 236) has a different feather feel, very crisp and slick in comparison. (babymakes6) Her wattles look good-well-rounded, smooth, and on the smaller side (would that be considered medium?)
[GaryDean26] Ya...I think that is medium. I have seen larger on some breeds. I think this is reffering to soft skinned wattles and its scope does not extend to the skin covered by the dense feathers.
A Hedemora hen has small wattles: (Picture from Greenfire Farms)

and a Leghorn hen has large wattles:

in the above pict at 22-weeks, both are panting because it was so hot that day...Robin had been digging in some moist dirt to make a dirt bath- hence the dirt on her beak.

Ear-lobes: Medium in size, oblong, pendent, smooth and free from folds, equally matched in size and shape.[chickat] - yes...not much of an earlobe fan (babymakes6) I moved this picture up because you can see her earlobes much better-her earlobes look good to me.
[GaryDean26] We may have some folds or wrinkles, but I think the description is good for what we are aiming for.

Crest: Small, tufted, affixed above the eyes at the forefront of the skull with feathers narrow that extend back towards the blade of the comb. (Please, there’s a need for a lot of comments on how to describe the crest, both male and female). [chickat] - My preference is for a crest that appears darker than any of the other feathering. I also prefer a crest that is trimmed-looking and not too poofy. Rather than the bouffant hair-style look, I prefer the ones that look like a little hat, except integrated. I think a definite but subtle crest is the most attractive. If you have a BYC 2012 calendar, then this months crest is way overkill. (great for Halloween though). I know that crest will be a big discussion point as redchicken9 stated. It is interesting how prominent their crests are as they are growing out...they look like punk-rockers with mowhawks...but then they settle into smooth refined crests as they grow older. (babymakes6) Her crest looks perfect to me, as far as shape. The Scar hens crests look more Polish-like. Legbars have a very distinct crest like no other bird I've seen.
[GaryDean26] I think we are shooting for well crested hens. I would describe the crest as full but not bushy, neat, and well groomed or well kept. Not to cover the eyes, face, or lobes. Not the mad scientist or Afro look in that the crest should lay back rather than sticking straight out.
Head: Medium in length, symmetrical, well balanced, and of fine quality. [chickat] - yes - I actually have no expertise in chicken head lengths.... (babymakes6) Her head is very fine, almost aristocratic.
[GaryDean26] The classical photo below has a much smaller head than ChicKat's Photo. Does "fine" reffere to the smaller head?
Neck: Long and well covered with hackle feathers. [chickat] - this breed does have longer necks than my other chickens, and holds the head high. They are very graceful for that reason ...and when the sit down - especially the females they look so graceful - because they seem to keep their head at the same level....... (babymakes6)Yes-this description fits very well. The only difference I see in the two pictures below is that Robin is leaning slightly forward (walking?), so her head is forward and her tail is up. Her back looks a little bit shorter than the drawing also.
[GaryDean26] Yep I can call that a long neck and it well covered with feathers. My White Leghorms loose a lot of feathers on their neck through out their laying cycle because all of their energy is going into eggs rather than maintaing hackel feathers.


Robin was pretty young in the black and white picture..... different pose also - but shows the long neck.

Back: Moderately broad it’s entire length, long, with an even slope to the tail. Feathers moderately broad and of sufficient length to carry well up to tail. [chickat] - I would say the hens fit this category - and they have no lack of feathering. (babymakes6) Looks good-but back may be just a bit short.
[GaryDean26] I though that we wanted a gentle taper (narrower at the tail than at the shoulders). Was that just the cocks or hens too? I don't think that we want a point at the tail though, just a slight narrowing at the tale. Also, I don't see a decription for length. Did we want to say moderatly long backs. Again the classical photos is a longer back than Chickcat's photo, but I think our aim the longer back.
Tail: Moderately long, carried at an angle of forty degrees (or 35?) above horizontal (see Punnett, text fig.1). Main tail feathers broad and overlapping.[chickat] - I think that tails exceed moderate, and that the tail angle often exceeds 40-degrees. What about y'all. At one point when my pair was growing up -- the hen's tail was much longer than the male's and I remember putting up a post to ask if others had seen that. If I have time to go through posts, I will see If I can come back with a link - but it probably is out there somewhere. (babymakes6) Tails are definitely long and full on every hen I've seen.
[GaryDean26] Do the hens normally have a lower tail angle than the cockerel? How are other breeds descriped? If not then I think that 45 degs is what we want to aim for.
Wings: Large and carried close to the body without dropping. [chickat] - yes (babymakes6)yes
[GaryDean26] Ok. By drooping I assume that in the profile that we don't see the tips of the wings below the silhouette of the bird.
Breast: Prominent, well-developed, and carried forward. [chickat] -yes. Although the following picture is blurry and from June when they were 6-mos old approx... IT shows the crest, the barring in the tail..earlobes at 6-mos and comb and wattles. (babymakes6) yes-her shape really seems to fit Punnett's description quite well!
[GaryDean26] I believe that "prominant" was defined as a brest extending past the beak of the bird then her neck is perpendicular to the ground and the head parallel. Robin is leaning forward here, but with her neck perpendicular to the ground the bread would come out more.



Before she went seriously broody...she would linger in the nest box---and it ws too hot to be indoors in July! This did give a good hackle, wattle, eye, earlobe and beak photo...... I would say heavily feathered.

There are several other face close ups -- left and right side, in the legbar contest entry. Tonight I will be back to see if I can dig up a link. :O)

 

[lonnyandrinda]

[GaryDean26] I think we are shooting for well crested hens. I would describe the crest as full but not bushy, neat, and well groomed or well kept. Not to cover the eyes, face, or lobes. Not the mad scientist or Afro look in that the crest should lay back rather than sticking straight out.

I really like the wording here, we have been struggling to describe the crest. I think it would be useful to work this into the SOP description of crest.

 

[redchicken9]

Everyone is fully amazing here! Looks like we are moving forward. Thank-you all for posting, especially the folks thinking about buying legbars or those that just did! I'll post language for the male color, asap. You know the kind of asap, when you want to do it, but there are other things to do first. My deadline before the weekend is out, sooner if I can move it! Hope there's a color chart in the mail! Thanks, ChicKat.

 

[ChicKat]

Wow what a fantastic discussion we have had going on. I know at first I was one of the voices for an Americanized CL standard, but the more I study and read and discuss here the more I am moving to the consensus of adhering the the British Standard (with the obvious language changes, etc, and still dropping the olive eggs?). It is very heartening to hear those with experience saying it IS possible to get our birds where they need to be. As much work as it is going to be- it IS possible.

I received the Online Auction Color Chart yesterday in the mail, and WOW it is fantastic. It is such a fabulous resource I think EVERY chicken owner who wants to work on breeding and compare egg/feather colors long distance should get it. It will definitely be useful for our group here! Thank you ChicKat for finding this and bringing it to our attention. For reference for those who have already ordered this chart, the CL hatching eggs I received in the mail yesterday from Jordan Farm are color oac123. I was surprised they are on the green color page not the blue!

Rinda

Hey Rinda,

You're welcome...I have the chart right here and am looking at oac123. It's a pretty color. I think the blue egg gene has a wide variety of manefestations.

I'd like to get to oac151 or oac179 or oac214., I hollowed out and saved Robin's first pullet egg....I will see how close I can match -- and post later. I also have some feathers from her -- for the salmon.....

 

[ChicKat]

Everyone is fully amazing here! Looks like we are moving forward. Thank-you all for posting, especially the folks thinking about buying legbars or those that just did! I'll post language for the male color, asap. You know the kind of asap, when you want to do it, but there are other things to do first. My deadline before the weekend is out, sooner if I can move it! Hope there's a color chart in the mail! Thanks, ChicKat.

Should be in the mail arriving any day now. :O)


----and now all 10 have been mailed or spoken for -- so I'm out....but anyone can buy them from the site. the more you get the less each costs. If people want to team up --

http://onlineauctioncolorchart.com/

 

[faykokoWV]

[GaryDean26] I think we are shooting for well crested hens. I would describe the crest as full but not bushy, neat, and well groomed or well kept. Not to cover the eyes, face, or lobes. Not the mad scientist or Afro look in that the crest should lay back rather than sticking straight out.

I really like the wording here, we have been struggling to describe the crest. I think it would be useful to work this into the SOP description of crest.

I agree

 

[redchicken9]

OK, following the American SOP. Here is a male color description. Will post and review my bird as soon as I am able, no problem if you beat me to it! I am also in the process of collecting and reviewing the male shape, so if you have anything further there, please comment. Again thank-you all!

Cream Legbar Color – Male

Comb, Face and Wattles: Bright Red.

Beak: Yellow. (Here, I put yellow following the BPS, however the color ‘horn’ also shows up in ASP, examples leghorn beak color is horn; Plymouth rock, yellow. Horn may be a more natural yellow or a color dirtier than pure yellow, this is hard to say).

Eyes: Reddish bay. (BPS describes these as orange or red. ASP states reddish bay for a large number of bird eyes that I think may have the same eye color like leghorns, Plymouth rocks, wyandottes, javas, RIR, buckeyes, etc. Different eye descriptions include Minorcas, dark brown; black breasted red modern game have red eyes, while brown red modern game have black eyes).

Ear-lobes: Enamel white (or white). (BPS considers it as opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings OK. Here I believe it is a one color only description, with the other possible option being white. Leghorns, minorcas, blue andalusions, buff catalanas are enamel white; Sicilian buttercups are white).

Head: (not specified in BPS, but think it is the same as neck below).

Neck: Hackle cream with infrequent, irregular barring. (BPS: sparsely barred. From my just learned knowledge, regular barring is the black and white transverse pattern of the barred Plymouth Rocks. Irregular is seen in Dominiques, Hollands, Campines (V shaped), and Cuckoo Belgain Bearded d’Anvers Bantams. Dominiques and Barred Hollands are described as irregular, dark and light barred, stopping short of positive black and white. Ours are grey and cream. Here I don’t find another bird with barring and cream. Aside: CL barring is also due to dominate sex-linked factors like Barred Rocks, Dominiques, and Cuckoo groups).

Back and Shoulders: Cream and dark grey irregular barring. (Here I don’t know whether to add in more. BPS: Some chestnut permissible. I haven’t yet seen in the ASP where a color leakage is mentioned on any other bird. I suspect, it’s like ear-lobes, ASP prefers a crisp color description. Here, those that know more, please comment).

Tail: Evenly barred grey. Sickles are lighter barred to white. (Here again is a color range in the sickles, which I’m OK with, but need to research if this is done in any other breeds).

Wings: Primaries: Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible. (Here again does the ASP style allow).
Secondaries: Dark grey, more clearly marked (as comment above).
Coverts: Grey barred, tipped in cream. (BPS says some chestnut permissible, once again is there a bird in ASP with color leakage? We need a reference or guideline on how to describe this and/or permit, if desirable).

Breast: Irregular dark grey and cream barring, defined in outline.

Legs and Toes: Yellow.