Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[fowlman01]

When looking for info on the CL description, only believe what the British Standard says about how they should look. I am finding a ton of misinformation about these online as I try to get a handle on how they should look. Most folks want them to look like the ones in their back yard.....the problem is that the ones in their back yard don't look the same either.

Walt

 

[ChicKat]

When looking for info on the CL description, only believe what the British Standard says about how they should look. I am finding a ton of misinformation about these online as I try to get a handle on how they should look. Most folks want them to look like the ones in their back yard.....the problem is that the ones in their back yard don't look the same either.

Walt

Could this be because they change quite a lot as they grow out? Is it possible that the biggest appearance differences are due to the age of the cockerels?

To my eyes they show quite a lot of uniformity if the bird of the same age of development is compared with another one. Obviously I'm not a poultry judge, -- and we are going by a split second photograph here which makes it more difficult to compare apples to apples....

A very young clb male looks a lot different from the older cockerel, but comparing cohorts with the same age -- they look a lot alike to me. Would it be easy to point out some of the things I am missing? Thanks.

 

[blackbirds13]

Could this be because they change quite a lot as they grow out? Is it possible that the biggest appearance differences are due to the age of the cockerels?

To my eyes they show quite a lot of uniformity if the bird of the same age of development is compared with another one. Obviously I'm not a poultry judge, -- and we are going by a split second photograph here which makes it more difficult to compare apples to apples....

A very young clb male looks a lot different from the older cockerel, but comparing cohorts with the same age -- they look a lot alike to me. Would it be easy to point out some of the things I am missing? Thanks.

I don't think they change any more than any other breed over time. In what I have observed you can tell differences between them as they grow but some are very subtle. The gold that is showing in the primaries of the cockerel in the color description above is a clear indication of gold. I cannot say I know exactly what needs to take place but I have some ideas and as I have said before I am weary of delving in the the whole genetics thing as I am obviously lacking the needed vocab to state what I want to say without blow back. But if there is gold in that wing bay you will have a more golden cockerel; to what degree of gold or how colorful the bird will be I am still learning but since they carry 2 genes the lighter birds should be able to breed forward a creamier bird given the right mate and so on and so on. I have a 6 week old that I know will definitely be more colorful than 3-8 week olds because of he already has gold showing in the secondaries and he has a brown tint to some of his overall feathering but seemingly especially on his breast feathers. I have to check them again this week to see what the secondaries look like but I would not be surprised to see some gold but would not be surprised if they are still clear of the gold as I do believe that the cream 'dilutes' the gold and if I breed these forward to their mother I will get lighter and lighter birds. The saddle feathers coming out now have different tints. I have tried taking photos but they do not really capture the tones. It's something you have to see in person I think. I have not quite figured out the crest color in the females. In what I am seeing on males if by 8 weeks you are seeing any sort of spotting of gold in the hackles then it will be a more colorful male - again to what degree i do not know. They do definitely lighten up as they grow but the saddle feathers and the hackle feathers start showing color or not as early as 8 weeks or so. I think as we breed more generations with a selective eye we will start to notice these subtle differences. In the females you can tell the slight brown tint to the body feathers of a more golden female at the same age as the cream girls seems to be more grey at the tips and I noticed the difference in the cream girl and the more gold tinted ones hackles a few weeks ago. I think pictures may tell a more general story but may cause one to miss the subtlety of the color development in these birds. I am starting to think the female may be more important than the male when trying to get to cream in that you need to definitely have a cream or lighter gold female to be able to breed that cream forward but since I do not have an adult male anymore I cannot test this out but none of my girls from my gold girl are cream - they are all replicas of her so far, though some appear to be slightly lighter in the tone of the gold hackle. No matter what it will not be a quick road to cream but it is not impossible.

I think there needs to be a lot of test breeding. If the cockerel above were mated to a creamier female perhaps lighter chicks may be the result and then breeding those back to their parents one may be able to capture more of the cream gene. He looks to be a lighter tone than most and may indeed be able to produce the foundation for the start of a cream flock. I think time will tell and breeding and watching what develops will be needed.

 

[fowlman01]

Could this be because they change quite a lot as they grow out? Is it possible that the biggest appearance differences are due to the age of the cockerels?

To my eyes they show quite a lot of uniformity if the bird of the same age of development is compared with another one. Obviously I'm not a poultry judge, -- and we are going by a split second photograph here which makes it more difficult to compare apples to apples....

A very young clb male looks a lot different from the older cockerel, but comparing cohorts with the same age -- they look a lot alike to me. Would it be easy to point out some of the things I am missing? Thanks.

I understand age differences in color. I have been judging chickens for over 35 years and successfully breeding for over 45 years, so maybe my eye is too critical. To me the type and color of males and females is all over the place...this is why I am saying to be sure you pick the correct type and color here in the beginning. The first step is to understand how a chicken is put together and then to understand ...or agree what the color should be. They are never going to be perfect and they will always have differences in color, but those differences should be small differences.

My original post that you responded to was more of .......be careful of what you read and see online as it is many times quite wrong. Check multiple sources. There are well respected websites that have pitiful pictures of CL's and one could assume that is the way they should look.

Walt

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks so much Walt!

For a minute there I thought that I was really missing something. It is such good advice too -- all the way around. I'm glad that you are keeping a watchful eye on our progress.

 

[ChicKat]

I don't think they change any more than any other breed over time. In what I have observed you can tell differences between them as they grow but some are very subtle. The gold that is showing in the primaries of the cockerel in the color description above is a clear indication of gold. I cannot say I know exactly what needs to take place but I have some ideas and as I have said before I am weary of delving in the the whole genetics thing as I am obviously lacking the needed vocab to state what I want to say without blow back. But if there is gold in that wing bay you will have a more golden cockerel; to what degree of gold or how colorful the bird will be I am still learning but since they carry 2 genes the lighter birds should be able to breed forward a creamier bird given the right mate and so on and so on. I have a 6 week old that I know will definitely be more colorful than 3-8 week olds because of he already has gold showing in the secondaries and he has a brown tint to some of his overall feathering but seemingly especially on his breast feathers. I have to check them again this week to see what the secondaries look like but I would not be surprised to see some gold but would not be surprised if they are still clear of the gold as I do believe that the cream 'dilutes' the gold and if I breed these forward to their mother I will get lighter and lighter birds. The saddle feathers coming out now have different tints. I have tried taking photos but they do not really capture the tones. It's something you have to see in person I think. I have not quite figured out the crest color in the females. In what I am seeing on males if by 8 weeks you are seeing any sort of spotting of gold in the hackles then it will be a more colorful male - again to what degree i do not know. They do definitely lighten up as they grow but the saddle feathers and the hackle feathers start showing color or not as early as 8 weeks or so. I think as we breed more generations with a selective eye we will start to notice these subtle differences. In the females you can tell the slight brown tint to the body feathers of a more golden female at the same age as the cream girls seems to be more grey at the tips and I noticed the difference in the cream girl and the more gold tinted ones hackles a few weeks ago. I think pictures may tell a more general story but may cause one to miss the subtlety of the color development in these birds. I am starting to think the female may be more important than the male when trying to get to cream in that you need to definitely have a cream or lighter gold female to be able to breed that cream forward but since I do not have an adult male anymore I cannot test this out but none of my girls from my gold girl are cream - they are all replicas of her so far, though some appear to be slightly lighter in the tone of the gold hackle. No matter what it will not be a quick road to cream but it is not impossible.

I think there needs to be a lot of test breeding. If the cockerel above were mated to a creamier female perhaps lighter chicks may be the result and then breeding those back to their parents one may be able to capture more of the cream gene. He looks to be a lighter tone than most and may indeed be able to produce the foundation for the start of a cream flock. I think time will tell and breeding and watching what develops will be needed.

Thanks blackbirds13 -

Actually I learn an awful lot from your posts--so don't underrate the results of your careful research...and your trained artist's eye, and your intelligent breeding plan.

Probably should go in the legbar thread with this question -- but a little cockrel here appears to be feathering very lightly....trouble is he has a diagonal comb. I wonder if his feathering may turn out to be a nice example of cream when he is an adult..... Time will tell.

Remember too, GaryDean26 has identified that the rooster bred to a silver hen would prove out the cream gene - based on the goldness of the offspring. Maybe that goes in SOP thread or perhaps not...but I think we get so much volume that some really important information gets lost. I'm guessing that could be another advantage of having a club rather than long threads.

Thanks for posting -- along with what Walt said you helped a lot to clear it up for me. I'm thinking that this cockrel is just about 8-weeks now.

One of the points that I meant to make as well -- is that when I see some pictures of peoples birds --especially the young ones, I have to do a double take to see if that's one of MY pictures...LOL -- because to me they look so much alike.

Agreed too that a picture cannot capture the colors - same with the eggs...there are so many lighting, camera, process, monitor variables that the exact color may be a bit like the game of telephone.

Lastly, I think that somehow I had the amazing stroke of great good fortune to have obtained a pair that is high on the cream scale so I loose track of when people are talking a lot of golden. (then again, I got that high score on Rinda's color accuity test...so go figure)

Have a great day one and all -- I'm off on a road trip.

 

[redchicken9]

Ok, I know we all need to some time to do the things we need to do in our busy lives. Below the male color language is re-posted without photos and some things I missed. Let's shoot for review and feedback as soon as you are able. Will edit my review (post 603 to reflect additional information). Excellent work everyone!


For those of you catching this thread at this time, here's were to find: male shape: (language 425) (reviews 451, 474, 488, 492, 495)
female shape (language 496)(reviews 544, 545, 581, 584)
male color: (language below) (review 603).


Comb, Face and Wattles: Bright Red

Beak: Yellow.

Eyes: Reddish bay. (BPS describes these as orange or red. ASP states bay = light golden brown).

Ear-lobes: Enamel white (or white). (BPS considers it as opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings permissible. APA states enamel-white has a satin white surface color. Leghorns, minorcas, blue andalusions, buff catalanas are enamel white; Sicilian buttercups are white).

Crest: Cream and gray barred, some chestnut permissible (not certain if we need to add in that it has irregular barring, see below).

Head: Hackle cream with infrequent, irregular barring.

Neck: Hackle cream with infrequent, irregular barring. (BPS: sparsely barred. From my just learned knowledge, regular barring is the black and white transverse pattern of the barred Plymouth Rocks. Irregular is seen in Dominiques, Hollands, Campines (V shaped), and Cuckoo Belgain Bearded d’Anvers Bantams. Dominiques and Barred Hollands are described as irregular, dark and light barred, stopping short of positive black and white. Ours are grey and cream. Here I don’t find another bird with barring and cream. Aside: CL barring is also due to dominate sex-linked factors like Barred Rocks, Dominiques, and Cuckoo groups).

Back and Shoulders: Cream and dark grey irregular barring, some chestnut permissible.

Saddle: Hackles cream barred with dark grey edged with cream.

Tail: Main tail: Evenly barred grey.

Main and Lesser Sickles: Lighter barred to white.

Wings: Bows : Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible.

Coverts: Grey barred, tipped in cream, some chestnut permissible.

Primaries: Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible.

Secondaries: Dark grey, more clearly barred.


Body and Fluff: Body: (Not denoted in BPS, this part SOP describes as the color exclusive of back and breast; specifically lower sides of body, abdomen and stern).

Fluff: (SOP indicates a need for color here, referring to the soft downy feathering on the inner side of the lower thighs and on the abdomen).

Breast: Irregular dark grey and cream barring, defined in outline.

Legs and Toes: Yellow.

Undercolor of All Sections: (BPS lacks description; SOP states it’s the color of the lower or fluff portion of feathers, not visible when the feathers are in natural position).

 

[fowlman01]

Back and Shoulders: Cream and dark grey irregular barring. (Here I don’t know whether to add in more. BPS: Some chestnut permissible. I haven’t yet seen in the ASP where a color leakage is mentioned on any other bird. Is this permissible? Those that know more, please comment).

I had never heard the word "leakage" used to describe color showing where it shouldn't until I joined BYC. You should probably use the British wording with this. It will work for the APA SOP as well. "some chestnut permissible". This seems to occur frequently in this breed. The APA has separate designations for HEAD and NECK even when the color is the same.

Walt

 

[redchicken9]

Back and Shoulders: Cream and dark grey irregular barring. (Here I don’t know whether to add in more. BPS: Some chestnut permissible. I haven’t yet seen in the ASP where a color leakage is mentioned on any other bird. Is this permissible? Those that know more, please comment).

I had never heard the word "leakage" used to describe color showing where it shouldn't until I joined BYC. You should probably use the British wording with this. It will work for the APA SOP as well. "some chestnut permissible". This seems to occur frequently in this breed. The APA has separate designations for HEAD and NECK even when the color is the same.

Walt

All getting closer. Thanks, Walt.

 

[ChicKat]

Ok, I know we all need to some time to do the things we need to do in our busy lives. Below the male color language is re-posted without photos and some things I missed. Let's shoot for review and feedback as soon as you are able. Will edit my review (post 603 to reflect additional information). Excellent work everyone!


For those of you catching this thread at this time, here's were to find: male shape: (language 425) (reviews 451, 474, 488, 492, 495)
female shape (language 496)(reviews 544, 545, 581, 584)
male color: (language below) (review 603).


Comb, Face and Wattles: Bright Red

Beak: Yellow.

Eyes: Reddish bay. (BPS describes these as orange or red. ASP states bay = light golden brown).

Ear-lobes: Enamel white (or white). (BPS considers it as opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings permissible. APA states enamel-white has a satin white surface color. Leghorns, minorcas, blue andalusions, buff catalanas are enamel white; Sicilian buttercups are white).

Crest: Cream and gray barred, some chestnut permissible (not certain if we need to add in that it has irregular barring, see below).

Head: Hackle cream with infrequent, irregular barring.

Neck: Hackle cream with infrequent, irregular barring. (BPS: sparsely barred. From my just learned knowledge, regular barring is the black and white transverse pattern of the barred Plymouth Rocks. Irregular is seen in Dominiques, Hollands, Campines (V shaped), and Cuckoo Belgain Bearded d’Anvers Bantams. Dominiques and Barred Hollands are described as irregular, dark and light barred, stopping short of positive black and white. Ours are grey and cream. Here I don’t find another bird with barring and cream. Aside: CL barring is also due to dominate sex-linked factors like Barred Rocks, Dominiques, and Cuckoo groups).

Back and Shoulders: Cream and dark grey irregular barring, some chestnut permissible.

Saddle: Hackles cream barred with dark grey edged with cream.

Tail: Main tail: Evenly barred grey.

Main and Lesser Sickles: Lighter barred to white.

Wings: Bows : Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible.

Coverts: Grey barred, tipped in cream, some chestnut permissible.

Primaries: Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible.

Secondaries: Dark grey, more clearly barred.


Body and Fluff: Body: (Not denoted in BPS, this part SOP describes as the color exclusive of back and breast; specifically lower sides of body, abdomen and stern).

Fluff: (SOP indicates a need for color here, referring to the soft downy feathering on the inner side of the lower thighs and on the abdomen).

Breast: Irregular dark grey and cream barring, defined in outline.

Legs and Toes: Yellow.

Undercolor of All Sections: (BPS lacks description; SOP states it’s the color of the lower or fluff portion of feathers, not visible when the feathers are in natural position).

I'm good with everything - I would probably say that we keep 'sparsley barred' if that is what the Brits wrote, however I will go along with the consensus. If it is going to be considered a new breed---then new things can be entered, I would surmise.

for the fluff, I think that gray is the color that I would suggest.

ETA or maybe creamy gray--I'm trying to recall the fluff color in the semi-darkness when I was digging around looking for some skin in all those hackle feathers last time I wormed 'Ice' but the legs and underside seem gray --but now I need to go research some picts specifically for the fluff.

O.K. here is a cut from a video that I enlarged. At just this second the wind was blowing his outer feathers away to show the fuluff..