cream legbars....I think I got it but....

[cafrhe]

Thanks Summer--I have a hard time with healthy looking chicks just up and dying. They were beautiful-big and fluffy, no difficulty hatching. And 4...just ticks me off. I guess I shouldnt complain too much. These were shipped eggs. 15 eggs, 100% fertility, 2 early quitters and 3 late quitters. 10 hatched. I think not bad for shipped eggs.

 

[summerb123]

Thanks Summer--I have a hard time with healthy looking chicks just up and dying. They were beautiful-big and fluffy, no difficulty hatching. And 4...just ticks me off. I guess I shouldnt complain too much. These were shipped eggs. 15 eggs, 100% fertility, 2 early quitters and 3 late quitters. 10 hatched. I think not bad for shipped eggs.

yeah thankfully none died on me today

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Thanks for the responses. Can anyone give me some idea of what you see? Is the pic of the single chick a boy or girl. Which ones would you mark for future breeders? If I am going to do this, I'd like to do it right. I was happy with the hatch size, I hope I have a good start. My thinking is always to keep the girls and then get a separate line rooster. But if there is a good rooster, maybe keep him and get different line girls as well.

You don't have to get separate lines for chickens. You can do line breeding and if you do it well will be able to maintain a good line that crosses out your own generations without bringing in new blood which can be problematic. If you do get a nice line going and need to cross out blood, it is usually recommended that you cross in a new female so you don't end up tainting all of the offspring when you don't yet know what your new blood will throw. Inbreeding doesn't become a problem for chickens for several generations. But when done correctly line breeding is a great way to have control over your genetics. Since I see @MeepBeep on here, I KNOW if I am misinformed... I WILL get corrected and informed!

I didn't realize you had to select for the auto sexing to stay nice and true, but I guess it does make sense. How nice would it be if everybody cared about what genetics they carry forward?!

I would keep the best of rooster and hens and start there with what you already have, unless none of them suit your needs.

I was thinking of being NPIP also. Didn't realize I wouldn't be able to take cockerels back for supper though I did know you can only get NPIP birds. Guess that makes sense!

Appears I have more things to consider.

So much information! It's a good thing.

Thanks for all the sharing of important info... Some of us truly DO care!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Thanks Dom--are you focusing on the little stripes on either side of the big middle stripe?

Thanks Summer. Very cute, but I lost 4 today. Not sure what went wrong for them. They hatched Thurs in to Friday with no problems, seemed comfortable under the heat, got their beaks dipped and shown food. The remaining 6 are vigorous.

I wonder how closely bred these birds are. If someone buys chicks from GFF (these are Jill Rees lines I am told), are those chicks from different lines or siblings? I am wondering if siblings are bred together if there is a loss of chick vitality. With my ayam cemani, my bc1 (daughters back to father) generation had more chick mortality than my f1 generation.

Appears as though I missed some post before my last post. Sorry, for your losses! Sounds like you know what you are doing, so probably no need to brainstorm for solutions.

Things are so mysterious with chickens sometimes. And with this being my first year actually line breeding or breeding in general, now I feel kind of dumb offering up any suggestions!

But I am here to learn and to learn the right way!

The GFF history lesson was great! And informative.

Raising chickens has actually made me think I need to go back to school! But I am glad to be here in an open learning forum. And honestly, some of what I was taught AT school was from the perspective of the text author/teacher and therefor heavily influenced away from reality! I consider schools these day to be large brainwashing, propaganda spreading government institutions.

@MeepBeep I could start a whole thread just to pick your brain and get some clarity!

Thank you to everyone who shares their learning experiences both good and bad. It really does help many others including me!

 

[cafrhe]

I appreciate your feedback Egg...I have a 'thing' against line breeding actually. But I understand it is common practice for chickens and very useful. I think my problem is that with most back yard breeders (me included) you buy a bunch of chicks or eggs, and then breed those back to each other. I was under the impression that proper line breeding is father to daughter or mother to son. I need some clarity on breeding siblings and/or half siblings--because that is what most of us have when we get a bunch of purebred chicks and want to develop a breeding program. That is why I thought I should get a different line roo. But I dont really know enough to really know what I should be doing.

I am a biologist by training and know just enough genetics for chickens to confuse me lol!! I definitely have to do more learning!

npip is just for shipping as far as I am concerned lol (and I havent shipped a bird yet). I was very relieved when all my birds tested neg for pullorum and ai. But t ends up limiting you as to what you can buy. And no technically you shouldnt accept roos back for dinner! But I wonder if you had a completely separate place to keep them it might be ok.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I appreciate your feedback Egg...I have a 'thing' against line breeding actually. But I understand it is common practice for chickens and very useful. I think my problem is that with most back yard breeders (me included) you buy a bunch of chicks or eggs, and then breed those back to each other. I was under the impression that proper line breeding is father to daughter or mother to son. I need some clarity on breeding siblings and/or half siblings--because that is what most of us have when we get a bunch of purebred chicks and want to develop a breeding program. That is why I thought I should get a different line roo. But I dont really know enough to really know what I should be doing.

I am a biologist by training and know just enough genetics for chickens to confuse me lol!! I definitely have to do more learning!

npip is just for shipping as far as I am concerned lol (and I havent shipped a bird yet). I was very relieved when all my birds tested neg for pullorum and ai. But t ends up limiting you as to what you can buy. And no technically you shouldnt accept roos back for dinner! But I wonder if you had a completely separate place to keep them it might be ok.

Oh ya, a separate place is on my agenda for sure. And I will do more research regarding selling across county/ state lines since I am at the Ca/Or border and have a total of 5 counties very reasonable distance and vacationers from very far away every single year. Even one driving 7 hours each way to get SFH from me next year. Shipping can be brutal on chicks. But someone else in my location is breeding Ameraucana and I can see how fast the saturation has taken place. Every where I go, people know who you got them from. They are nice birds, but I think it's a great lesson to be had. Wonder if even a separate housing/yard is within NPIP? I mean, I can't control where my neighbors birds might come from. Or even if my LFS buys from only NPIP because I suspect not!

The ones I was thinking about accepting back was of course because I don't currently have an auto sexing breed and MANY can't have AND don't need (in terms of experience) roos. Yes most of them are easy to tell around 6 weeks but people want the experience of raising the very young chicks.

Also, I would continue to raise returned roos (not refunded but as a community service) on my feed and until I knew they were disease free, thinking not less than 30 days.

Yes I agree most are starting with sibling, myself included. Then move on to father/daughter mother/son with 2 lines side by side to cross out as needed. And many just like you say will not keep their breeding under a controlled environment. I was originally looking to have separate blood for my SFH starting out, but as @MeepBeep has pointed out even those come from the same line, essentially. Definitely when I have interactions with people now, I can tell the difference between those who cull and those who don't. And the difference itself is huge in the subsequent birds. Finding GOOD blood seems to be difficult and OFTEN requires shipping. So I guess their are limitations to both NPIP and not. Many decisions to be made still. So other than it being "morally" wrong for humans (IMHO) do you mind sharing your contention with line breeding?

Regarding having just enough background to be really confused.... one thing I have learned is.... The more I know, the LESS I know!

I appreciate your thoughts on the subject!

 

[MeepBeep]

I think my problem is that with most back yard breeders (me included) you buy a bunch of chicks or eggs, and then breed those back to each other.  I was under the impression that proper line breeding is father to daughter or mother to son.  I need some clarity on breeding siblings and/or half siblings--because that is what most of us have when we get a bunch of purebred chicks and want to develop a breeding program.

Sibling breeding is considered inbreeding, line breeding is breeding back to parents...

Occasional inbreeding is generally not a problem, but the problem is that someone gets all siblings and breeds them, they sell the inbred siblings to someone else that again inbreeds those siblings and all the sudden you have multiple generations of inbred siblings... This is why many choose to go back and order directly from Greenfire vs getting some multi-generation inbred stock...

But, even if you start with inbreds, with a good and proper breeding program and culling you can almost always recover and build diversity back into the line, especially if you are able to bring another line in at some point or even a distant relative from another breeder that was strengthening the line...

But, this takes time and many years, and it's the reason I did my homework and did my best to source some unrelated stock from the get go...

Also I have done a ton of research on the CL but there are still some other members on here that are years ahead of me and near encyclopedias of the US CL story...

 

[cafrhe]

Thanks Meep, that is my thinking. When I get chicks, if I want to breed, I almost always then go back and get an unrelated roo once I see what females I have. Probably inefficient, I 'm sure.

I will do my research on CL while these chicks grow up. Would it be a good idea to get a rooster from one of the 1st gff imports since I seem to have jill rees lines? I did a little bit of reading and it seems there is some color difference. Not sure it that is a bad thing!

Thanks for all the info.

Egg--as a biologist I am against line breeding on the whole hybrid vigor thing! You do need to know more than I do to do it right, I think. You are either fixing good traits, bad traits or both. And then have to figure out which bird had the traits you dont want.

 

[MeepBeep]

Would it be a good idea to get a rooster from one of the 1st gff imports since I seem to have jill rees lines?

That is entirely up to you and the traits you are trying to fix and what you have to work with, even though in many trait respects the Rees birds are superior all my Rees roos have floppy combs, while my claimed Canadian line roos have perfectly upright combs and honestly don't look that bad color wise, so for me a cross between them is my logical next choice hoping to pull out upright combs and move on from their... But,on the negative side if one is aiming for Standard of Perfection, my Canadian line carries the recessive color suppressing gene, great for me since I want my own 'White Sport' line but it's going to be a hassle to make sure I weed out that white gene in my SoP colored lines...

Pros and cons either way, but if I was you I would certainly consider another blood line or get a Rees one that has been culled back by another breeder and has more positive traits then much of garden variety Rees lines being sold right now...

 

[Dom'sHEns]

Thanks Dom--are you focusing on the little stripes on either side of the big middle stripe?

Thanks Summer. Very cute, but I lost 4 today. Not sure what went wrong for them. They hatched Thurs in to Friday with no problems, seemed comfortable under the heat, got their beaks dipped and shown food. The remaining 6 are vigorous.

I wonder how closely bred these birds are. If someone buys chicks from GFF (these are Jill Rees lines I am told), are those chicks from different lines or siblings? I am wondering if siblings are bred together if there is a loss of chick vitality. With my ayam cemani, my bc1 (daughters back to father) generation had more chick mortality than my f1 generation.

Yes, a combo of the sharpness of the "chipmunk pattern" along with sharpness of the head "V" and length/ completeness/ saturation of the eyeliner stripe. @MeepBeep is right, at this point I would band and see how they grow out. You can then go back to these pictures and get an idea how your CCL line of chicks sex out in down patterns.

Im sorry for your loss, I personaly feel the vitality of these birds are not up to par yet. I have lost several for odd, still partially unknown reasons. I've have them stunt as chicks and either fail to catch up, or remain very small into adulthood, and also I've had losses close to POL. In the 10 years I have been keeping chickens I have never expierenced losses like I have with CCL's. Breeding to SOP with be further challenged with the need to breed for vitality with the limited gene pool here in the states.

Keep us updated on your birds and your project, would love to continue to see the progress with these birds.

Dom