Cream Legbars

[BuffyBugSlayer]

She is a pullet, I see 3 pullets in the top pic. When it comes to sexing the autosexing breeds where the chicks are someone ambiguous, go by the head spot. No head spot = pullet, every time. Some pullets have very small head spots, but males always have large ones, like the boy in the pic.

Do you think that chick laying down in the top pic is a pullet too?

 

[caychris]

I am not sure I completely understand what you are saying but I think both sexes should be easily identifiable at hatch. If they aren't then they should 't be bred forward.

What Im saying is that even though something may be clearly male and female I think that the male distinction is less clear and we generally assume anything not clearly female is male.

So I am suggesting that there may be male signatures that might make autosexing more clear when breeding. Obviously we wouldnt breed females that were indistinct but or a male that we thougth might have been female but it makes me wonder why the autosexing feature is being lost if it is such a feature. Im just thinking that there are other indicators (ie barring etc) that might be a better predictor of autosexing qualities.

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

It's not clear to me that fixing this is as simple as selecting to easy to sex chicks, but it is certainly worth a try. I agree that it is frustrating to feel like the sex of some is ambiguous. I have 4 different autosexing breeds (5 if you count the 2 lines of Legbars), and the hardest to sex are the legbars, but they are still 100% sexable, at least with experience. If it is that easy to get all chicks easily autosexing by only selecting clearly marked chicks, then we should have this taken care of in short order. If there are genetics in CCL's that make something desirable (like crests, for ex) but also have the side effect of making the chick down ambiguous in some chicks, then we will likely be dealing with this for some time to come.

It's an easy theory to test. I plan to select the very best colored chicks this summer to keep as breeders. I will mark or separate these and see if the chick down colors improve.

I am not sure that people have been particularly selective with Legbars in the USA. I think that a lot of CLB have been mixed with other breeds and passed off as Legbars. I think some people are being selective just not all. I sure see a lot mixes being passed off due to people wanting to make a quick buck or just ignorance.

It seems logical selecting for chick down would make a difference and a good place to start. It probably isn't the only thing that contributes but I think the breed would certainly benefit from better breeding selection.

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

What Im saying is that even though something may be clearly male and female I think that the male distinction is less clear and we generally assume anything not clearly female is male.

So I am suggesting that there may be male signatures that might make autosexing more clear when breeding. Obviously we wouldnt breed females that were indistinct but or a male that we thougth might have been female but it makes me wonder why the autosexing feature is being lost if it is such a feature. Im just thinking that there are other indicators (ie barring etc) that might be a better predictor of autosexing qualities.

Ok, I understand what you are saying and I agree. I feel like male chicks do have indicators other than not just looking like a female chick. Maybe we need to review the distinguishing characteristics of male chick down colors and features? Though it does seem like male down color and markings are less precise.

 

[ChicKat]

LoL, I guess we all agree that chick is confusing! I defer to Chickat.

BBS - now watch me be wrong....

after being deferred to -- and I 'm just agreeing with eval by dheltzel --
Lozuufy -- please keep us updated so we can all learn/verify our views.
Thanks.

 

[ChicKat]

Ok, I understand what you are saying and I agree. I feel like male chicks do have indicators other than not just looking like a female chick. Maybe we need to review the distinguishing characteristics of male chick down colors and features? Though it does seem like male down color and markings are less precise.

Thinking back to Punnett's day -- and looking at his structure for autosexing it seems to me that the genetic keys to autosexing are:
1). the double barring on males and
2). the chipmunk stripes on females. So to get chipmunk -- the chick should be a 'duckwing' pattern. (created by a pair of e+ genes on the E-Locus)

-- I think that some other E-Locus genes have crept into the breed. Some of the other E-Locus genes could give a similar appearance...to the true e+ in chick down. Following the stars is a quote from Henk69- who is a gene genius - and created the chicken gene calculator (it is in 'Classroom in the coop)

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On request a topic about chick down phenotypes and the genotypes to go with it.
We want to keep this topic clean so every off topic remark will be removed!

Kick-off
e+: chipmunk pattern
eb: helmet pattern
eWh: little pattern (overall yellowish)
ER: overall dark pattern, dark legs.
E: penguin pattern
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=91532&page=all
******************************************************************************************************************
Here is a set of photos in reply showing some various chick down patterns:

Can you see from the above that an eb or an ebc or an eWh -- as one of the pair on the E-Locus could cause a little battle in how the down pattern is expressed? I see it

So back to the Punnett basis:

The double barring produces the white headspot.

Logically -- white head spots should indicate strong barring genes and strong stripes definite duckwing (e+). Think about it.

The males double barring gene - will diffuse the chipmunk stripes and even make the head splotch cause the head-V to look less crisp. On males the light splotch either creeps outside the V or messes it up in my viewpoint.

Also -- perhaps JMO -- the male stripes for a duckwing do not disappear or diffuse entirely to the point that they are absent and non-discernable. I suppose that view could be considered controversial in some circles. ;O)

So definitely selecting for strong autosexing should be possible from chick down........

 

[Lozuufy]

I guess I'll have to wait til he/she grows feathers! Will definitely update when I know what it is.

 

[ChicKat]

Here is the chick-down illustration I have referred to before and been unable to locate:





Here is the complete article for anyone interested in digging in
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1209740/pdf/519.pdf

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Quote: Naw - they can be super friendly if you spend time with them, but still retain enough "flightiness" to be good foragers.

Hi everyone, I have a question... hope you don't mind me just jumping in.

I just hatched 5 cream legbar chicks, I think I have 2 boys and 2 girls and then there is one that I am confused about. He/she is the one in the top of both pics, can anyone tell if it is a cockerel or pullet? These are my first CCLs and I'm very excited to start breeding them, also I LOVE the little crests on these babies, so cute!

Girl, I feel fairly certain - all of Paula's five pullets looked like that at hatch (and Paula didn't have great auto sexing as a baby). Glad I have her babies, since she has passed (very good layer and very sweet), but I'm not going to use them for CL breeding - I will use them for hybrids and laying.

Right now I have seven eggs in lockdown from Lissa (very good auto sexing, best markings/coloring of my CL girls) - so far, two boys, two girls. We'll see what they look like when they dry off.

- Ant Farm

 

[IvanTsary]

SOOOOOO MUUUUUUUUCH SCIIIIIEEEEEENNNNNNCEEEEEE...

"I was told there would be no math...."