Cream Legbars

[caychris]

Great posts lately.

Right now I have 1 hen (Faile) about 17 months and 1 pullet (Robin) 6 months and 2 cockerels one 6 months (Henry) and one 3 months (Junior)


Faile (Fah-eel) has the closest coloring of a CLB but she is small and doesn't lay very well (maybe 3-4 a week and hasnt laid much at all lately)



Robin looks more brown and gold but lays well and is larger.

(a younger picture maybe 6 weeks or more ago)


Henry has huge comb and wattles hackles and saddle do not match (too munch brown/chestnut) in saddle area appeared early to have slight wry tail but not noticeable these days.

(Henry is a bit cooped up these days because Im still working on his final home)



Junior is still too young to tell but his comb is already folding over. He has no tail issue to speak of and may have more cream hackles than Henry. Also has fairly large crest for a male.

I don't have a pic for him yet plus he is still too young to tell much with anyway.

I plan to put Henry together with Faile, Robin and the Barred Holland I have In a breeding pen inside the next month and breed what I can from them and see if anything ends up better than them. I may get some more birds/eggs brought in. (The lady who has Faile stock is getting rid of her CLB so I might get some of hers) I prefer to hatch eggs even with the bad luck because I can raise the birds and usually tame behavior issues and introduce them to the flock easily)

My was originally interested in just the blue eggs but I do want to improve my birds and help with the SOP as well.

Im adding the Barred Holland because she will lay white eggs and the mix might be interesting and I do not have a Barred Holland male yet. She is the single survivor of over 30 shipped eggs.

Ive spoken to @Sol2Go a bit but she is down south. There are a lot of people with CLB birds for sale in CA but at this point I just want to start getting my feed wet with these guys and see what I can learn from them.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Very well said!

Although new to the USA, it's a long-time breed that was nearly lost, so it seems, in the UK. Very few of Punnett's early descendents were left when David Applegarth kind of rescued the breed from extinction in the 1980's I think it was. (This could be referenced on the CL Club's history page)--- In the intervening time though, unknowing - albeit well-meaning people infused other genetics to the CL to increase egg size for example, or egg production-- And even M.Pease stated somewhere or other, or maybe it was Punnett - that a brown Leghorn could be used as an out-cross. Hence - even following their formulae one could introduce crestlessness.

Poultry showing is a real two-edged sword. If it weren't for shows, many people wouldn't even see the breed. Poultry shows will get enthusiasts to work with a breed to try to 'perfect' it for the show world. So part of the popularity is probably due to Jill Rees and others successes in the UK shows allowing us to sit here in the USA and see winning birds -- and have something to model. Punett didn't create the CL and other autosexing breeds for showing - but they have their own definite appeal.

Because it is autosexing, quirky, appealing, crested, softer than silk, etc. a lot of us that are relatively new poultry-keepers, and many urban hen owners living in areas where roosters are forbidden appreciate the appeal of CLs - not to mention the blue eggs. The high price that they can bring -- is another two-edged sword. People will try to propagate the breed, for the money angle. Agreed with earlier statements that there is a difference (huge one IMO) between people who hatch chicks and people who are truly 'breeders'. But the high price may protect them to a degree and get them respect from those who only care about profit -- as well as from those who care more about the chicken profit or no.

IMO possibly some of the lines* -- including the JR line - have mixed in genetics that lighten the color - however, at the same time lessen the strength of the autosexing. As shown lately by occurrences of gender ambiguity.

Add to that -- the Poultry Exhibition only cares about - and can only care about the factual bird that the judge sees at that moment in the show cage. If someone wanted to they could breed a look-alike that perhaps didn't even lay a blue egg -- and wasn't autosexing and have a phenotype CL that lacked the genotype. Our breed is very complex...and we do have, and have had for decades most likely -- the breed in the hands of people with scant knowledge of poultry genetics. Poultry Judge couldn't know the pedigree, if the chick picture pasted on the page was even of that particular chicken as a chick - and what color the egg would be (except on rare occasions)---- And Poultry Judge probably has enough to juggle with out added considerations that are out of their immediate reach

For my part, and hopefully yours and many others -- autosexing will be the top priority - and high production of blue eggs will follow that. how very wonderful to add on the fact that the bird could compete in a show. It goes without saying that the chickens must be very healthy and robust -- but I will say it regardless...and that applies to both the showing and the producing flocks.

Everyone who raises chickens has a different desired outcome -- That is one of the reasons that there are so very many different breeds of chickens. Some in the UK interpreted the SOP that the CL should 'look silver' - and worked to obtain a silver looking chicken - at a cost. The SOP doesn't say 'silver' for the Cream Legbar it says 'cream' - so if the interpretation of cream goes one direction versus another direction the result will have a different appearance. Numerous people are seeking a pale butter color to the hackles - chicken pickin' comes to mind as someone who has that look, and the cream has an iridescent look - it is a beautiful color and it is different from white/silver. Regardless how beautiful the chicken is-- if it isn't autosexing IMO it isn't really a Cream Legbar. If you reference the Club's webpage and look at the "Breed Guide" - the final page of the Guide has some photos of Cream chickens and those are from Chicken pickin's stock.

* Probably all our chickens have mixed in genetics - and none would match the Punnett's day CL 100%. the E-Locus is considered VERY important by fluent geneticists. It was considered that Wild type was correct for Cream Legbars. (chipmunk stripes) -- When the chipmunk pattern starts to vary and get messed up -- then it makes me suspicious of what may be on the E-Locus. JMO.
There is a black-and-white plate from an article showing the various patterns in chick down based the E-Locus. At this moment - I can't locate it -- and I don't think I put it in the Clubhouse where it would be easy to grab. If anyone has it, then please post -- and I will put it in the club house next time I encounter it.

ETA - There are people working with Jill Rees line working on the important characteristics of CLs - one example is Tim Henson in Michigan who is improving the stock that he got - I think maybe he has all that line. Not to do JR line bashing-- because our breed, regardless of line, still needs a lot of work. If someone has JR line -- they may need to work to strengthen autosexing, if someone has my birds, they may need to work to lessen eumelanine, melanin for short.

If someone wants to buy CL from a prestigeous source like GFF - they must buy JR line because that is the one that GFF settled upon. All of us have work, regardless of our chickens backgrounds-- it is just that the JR line is the one popping up with autosexing ambiguity of late. Sellers will use marketing words such as 'from Greenfire Farms' and 'Jill Rees lines' -- both as shorthand for buyers, and marketing tools.

ALL the CLs in the USA are Greenfire Farms -- (well not totally 100% - some people are building their own based on Punnett's formula, and these birds rather than being identified as project birds, are being called CL. Club VP dretd mentioned to me that it would be a favor to the breed and people who are interested in the CL to identify project birds AS project birds, because some of them are far from SOP -- most especially in type -- and type is the number 1 attribute of a breed's appearance.

Glad that you brought it up Ant Farm. :O)

Very helpful response. I should make sure to clarify that I didn't intend to bash on the Rees line (or any line), or anyone working on SOP color/conformation, for that matter. Just to express alarm that if we aren't on the ball and really careful, it appears that in this breed, we could lose reliable autosexing very quickly in the pursuit of other characteristics, and I worry about how hard it would be to recapture (especially as it would be so hard to verify chick appearance in an adult, as you noted). There are lots of beautiful chickens, but a breed that is valued for laying a special egg color (blue in this case) in which the pullets (future egg layers) can be identified at hatch is pretty special. I can't be the only one who has wished that Black Copper Marans were autosexing...

I like the darker CLs myself, rather than the really light ones like the Rees line - better camouflage from aerial predators in my yard.

- Ant Farm

 

[ChicKat]

Very helpful response. I should make sure to clarify that I didn't intend to bash on the Rees line (or any line), or anyone working on SOP color/conformation, for that matter. Just to express alarm that if we aren't on the ball and really careful, it appears that in this breed, we could lose reliable autosexing very quickly in the pursuit of other characteristics, and I worry about how hard it would be to recapture (especially as it would be so hard to verify chick appearance in an adult, as you noted). There are lots of beautiful chickens, but a breed that is valued for laying a special egg color (blue in this case) in which the pullets (future egg layers) can be identified at hatch is pretty special. I can't be the only one who has wished that Black Copper Marans were autosexing...

I like the darker CLs myself, rather than the really light ones like the Rees line - better camouflage from aerial predators in my yard.

- Ant Farm

I know what you are saying 100%. Sometimes when we are pointing out a view, it could be construed as bashing...but I didn't think that is what you meant at all. Me either - although it could seem that way -- Partially I think it is because there has been a lot of focus on the Rees line -- and when an observation is made - it could sound more negative than it was meant.

People working on the Rees line birds -- have the same opportunity/challenges that everyone has...we are just working on differing parts of the equation.

For all of us, we are sensitive about our chickens if we have a lot invested in them. As BYCer 'chooks4life' so eloquently states it ' .....if I give offense, please reconsider taking it'.

 

[caychris]

This happens to be one of my favorite threads because of the attitude of the people here.

 

[ChicKat]

Great posts lately.

Right now I have 1 hen (Faile) about 17 months and 1 pullet (Robin) 6 months and 2 cockerels one 6 months (Henry) and one 3 months (Junior)


Faile (Fah-eel) has the closest coloring of a CLB but she is small and doesn't lay very well (maybe 3-4 a week and hasnt laid much at all lately)



Robin looks more brown and gold but lays well and is larger.

(a younger picture maybe 6 weeks or more ago)


Henry has huge comb and wattles hackles and saddle do not match (too munch brown/chestnut) in saddle area appeared early to have slight wry tail but not noticeable these days.

(Henry is a bit cooped up these days because Im still working on his final home)



Junior is still too young to tell but his comb is already folding over. He has no tail issue to speak of and may have more cream hackles than Henry. Also has fairly large crest for a male.

I don't have a pic for him yet plus he is still too young to tell much with anyway.

I plan to put Henry together with Faile, Robin and the Barred Holland I have In a breeding pen inside the next month and breed what I can from them and see if anything ends up better than them. I may get some more birds/eggs brought in. (The lady who has Faile stock is getting rid of her CLB so I might get some of hers) I prefer to hatch eggs even with the bad luck because I can raise the birds and usually tame behavior issues and introduce them to the flock easily)

My was originally interested in just the blue eggs but I do want to improve my birds and help with the SOP as well.

Im adding the Barred Holland because she will lay white eggs and the mix might be interesting and I do not have a Barred Holland male yet. She is the single survivor of over 30 shipped eggs.

Ive spoken to @Sol2Go a bit but she is down south. There are a lot of people with CLB birds for sale in CA but at this point I just want to start getting my feed wet with these guys and see what I can learn from them.

Hi caychris,
it is good to work with what you have. And everyone has to do that.

Not sure what your vision is - but you have named a number of flaws IMO in the cockerel that you want to overcome. it could take some time to overcome them. In the long run, you may want to take the extra time to get a different cockerel, and put your starting point closer to your goal, even if the delay to find him seems endless, it could get you where you want to be quicker.

As you and others have also said -- you want the experience of breeding them, and one is never 100% certain what the results of a pairing could be .... it just seems that you have had some really bad luck like your example of 1 hatched from 30 eggs that you got. Was wondering if you got a cockerel closer to your vision if it wouldn't jump-start you a bit.

 

[ChicKat]

This happens to be one of my favorite threads because of the attitude of the people here.

Our posts crossed in cyberspace. !! Just had a thought that it seems that cockerels are more plentiful than hens and more available.

 

[caychris]

Our posts crossed in cyberspace. !! Just had a thought that it seems that cockerels are more plentiful than hens and more available.

Yes Ill have to put some time into finding one. Ill do that when I have the group I have all settled so it will be easier to change him out.

Breeding my current crew will be helpful experience none the less.

If nothing else but should improve my hatch rates and having blue egg layers isnt a bad thing.
My freezer can handle the extra boys too.

 

[Brat Flock]

My girls at 20 weeks. The one is much more cinnamon and has a small crest, one is almost all grey

 

[allpeepedout]

Very pretty! I think part of the fun of this breed for the backyarder is being able to tell individuals apart.

 

[ChicKat]

Allpeepedout and Bratflock! you are both from Indiana.

Bratflock, your third pullet is the very darkest I have ever seen. It looks like the exposure is a bit darker, because the gravel is darker in the last photo---but even her legs are saturated with pigment. In about a month, you should begin to look for eggs. It will be very interesting to see if the pullet in the last photo carries out the saturated trend and lays a very dark colored egg. Be sure to post back when the great day arrives (and tells us about the egg shell color).

Where did you get your chickens?