Cream Legbars

[angelathomas1]

She's a real personality, too. Big mouth on her (I even thought she might be crowing at 4 weeks - but really she was just raising h-e-double-hockey-sticks because I had taken one of her brooder mates out to cuddle).

The other day I came home early to meet the fencing guy, and we were in the way back of the property (maybe about 300 feet from the coop, in a stand of trees) when I started to hear this LOUD chicken sound (bwak-bwak-bwa-GAAK!), which I had never heard before from my girls. I turned to the fence guy and said "Do you think that's my chickens?!" He agreed yes, and I went running back to the coop. With the racket they were making, it sounded like something was ripping its way into their coop, and probably attacking them. I finally get there, and Paula is just standing at the end of the run on her little chicken tippy-toes, breast fully stuck out and right up against the wire, staring at me accusingly. She was apparently SCOLDING me for walking right past the coop when I came home and not paying attention to her. At full volume. I think the guinea next door has been a bad influence on her... 

You know... I actually may be looking for a nice little CCL cockerel... (Not sure he could be any louder than Paula.) ChicKat, how far are you from San Antonio? Any little boy chicks on their way? 

- Ant Farm 

That's funny! I can't wait until their personalities start. I'm just so darn excited I got these 3.

I told my mom that all my chicken dreams have come true now that I have these Cream Legbars. Lol!

 

[ChicKat]

She's a real personality, too. Big mouth on her (I even thought she might be crowing at 4 weeks - but really she was just raising h-e-double-hockey-sticks because I had taken one of her brooder mates out to cuddle).

The other day I came home early to meet the fencing guy, and we were in the way back of the property (maybe about 300 feet from the coop, in a stand of trees) when I started to hear this LOUD chicken sound (bwak-bwak-bwa-GAAK!), which I had never heard before from my girls. I turned to the fence guy and said "Do you think that's my chickens?!" He agreed yes, and I went running back to the coop. With the racket they were making, it sounded like something was ripping its way into their coop, and probably attacking them. I finally get there, and Paula is just standing at the end of the run on her little chicken tippy-toes, breast fully stuck out and right up against the wire, staring at me accusingly. She was apparently SCOLDING me for walking right past the coop when I came home and not paying attention to her. At full volume. I think the guinea next door has been a bad influence on her...

You know... I actually may be looking for a nice little CCL cockerel... (Not sure he could be any louder than Paula.) ChicKat, how far are you from San Antonio? Any little boy chicks on their way?

- Ant Farm

I will send you a PM!

 

[chicken pickin]

Ive been trying to sort through all my pullets and hens to decide on the ones with the best qualities to stay. Im stating to narrow it down, I have 15 CL females and would like to cut it down to about 4ish.

Here is one that has made the cut and will stay. So far I like her a lot, though I wish her tail was lower and her comb was less floppy. Otherwise I am happy. She is 21weeks so nearing point of lay Sorry there are so many pics, I get picture happy.










This is the 2nd one that also made the cut and will stay. I only have her most recent picture with my daughter holding her, but she has nice qualities as well. She is only 12weeks old.






Now to try to select 2-3 more. Its tough they all are so pretty If anyone that is somewhat local to me is interested in CL pullets or hens I will be rehoming soon

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

That's funny! I can't wait until their personalities start. I'm just so darn excited I got these 3.

I told my mom that all my chicken dreams have come true now that I have these Cream Legbars. Lol!

They're super characters, very curious and active, never a dull moment. Cream Legbars are the BEST Chicken TV channel, IMHO. Warning - mine still fly really well. REALLY, REALLY well. It's taking some creative problem solving as I figure out their long term paddock fencing...

("So if flying livestock is an issue, why are you also getting chocolate muscovies this spring then?" you may ask. I have no defense. They're pretty, ok? Don't judge me!!!

)

- Ant Farm

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

I will send you a PM!

(Ahem...)

- Ant Farm (sitting on hands and bouncing)

 

[ChicKat]

Ive been trying to sort through all my pullets and hens to decide on the ones with the best qualities to stay. Im stating to narrow it down, I have 15 CL females and would like to cut it down to about 4ish.

Here is one that has made the cut and will stay. So far I like her a lot, though I wish her tail was lower and her comb was less floppy. Otherwise I am happy. She is 21weeks so nearing point of lay Sorry there are so many pics, I get picture happy.










This is the 2nd one that also made the cut and will stay. I only have her most recent picture with my daughter holding her, but she has nice qualities as well. She is only 12weeks old.






Now to try to select 2-3 more. Its tough they all are so pretty If anyone that is somewhat local to me is interested in CL pullets or hens I will be rehoming soon

Difficult choice for certain -- the ones that you are keeping are stellar.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

As someone who loves Cream Legbars, may I ask a possibly inflammatory question?

When one of the key features of a breed is its autosexing features, short of somehow using verified photos of the birds in question as newly hatched chicks (photos hung on the cage at poultry shows?!), how does one ensure preservation of this aspect of the breed?

I ask because of recent concerns about loss of autosexing features in otherwise "well respected" lines (indicated in multiple posts about "what sex is my chick" in what should be a clearly autosexing breed). In good examples of Cream Legbars, the sex at hatch should never be in question (am I wrong?). Older/grown birds we admire here on BYC may have amazing coloring/combs/crests and features, but we may not know how well they were able to be sexed at hatch. Not only would I support honoring the original intentions of development of the "-bar" breeds (Cambar, Rhodebar, Cream Legbar...), but I support the preservation of production features of any breed when pursuing an SOP (in the case of Cream Legbars, autosexing and good egg production). I have gotten to where I find myself grinding my teeth in frustration when autosexing features are apparently so easily lost, e.g., in some descended from the lauded Jill Rees line (so pretty as adults). I am also concerned that, because in some circles/arenas, Cream Legbars can command a high price (I certainly paid a lot for mine), this muddies the waters further and predisposes to poor decisions in propagating the breed for some.

I confess that I am focused more on production than subtle color/comb aspects in Cream Legbars (and I understand that my goals are different than those of others, and I completely honor that), but shouldn't we work really, REALLY hard to honor an original intention in the development of Cream Legbars - an autosexing breed? As I understand it, that was SUPER important in its development (compared to subtleties of coloring/cream, etc.) - please correct me if I'm wrong. Given the fact that this is a relatively new breed, and there have been some struggles in attaining SOP (as breeders posting in this thread can attest), at some point will we be forced to choose between autosexing clarity vs. coloration? If so, what will we choose? I think it would be a shame if color "won" at the expense of autosexing (which cannot be assessed in adulthood), and the autosexing characteristics were lost.

Thoughts?

- Ant Farm

 

[napdognewfie]

Autosexing & lots of pretty blue eggs was what got me interested.

 

[ChicKat]

As someone who loves Cream Legbars, may I ask a possibly inflammatory question?

When one of the key features of a breed is its autosexing features, short of somehow using verified photos of the birds in question as newly hatched chicks (photos hung on the cage at poultry shows?!), how does one ensure preservation of this aspect of the breed?

I ask because of recent concerns about loss of autosexing features in otherwise "well respected" lines (indicated in multiple posts about "what sex is my chick" in what should be a clearly autosexing breed). In good examples of Cream Legbars, the sex at hatch should never be in question (am I wrong?). Older/grown birds we admire here on BYC may have amazing coloring/combs/crests and features, but we may not know how well they were able to be sexed at hatch. Not only would I support honoring the original intentions of development of the "-bar" breeds (Cambar, Rhodebar, Cream Legbar...), but I support the preservation of production features of any breed when pursuing an SOP (in the case of Cream Legbars, autosexing and good egg production). I have gotten to where I find myself grinding my teeth in frustration when autosexing features are apparently so easily lost, e.g., in some descended from the lauded Jill Rees line (so pretty as adults). I am also concerned that, because in some circles/arenas, Cream Legbars can command a high price (I certainly paid a lot for mine), this muddies the waters further and predisposes to poor decisions in propagating the breed for some.

I confess that I am focused more on production than subtle color/comb aspects in Cream Legbars (and I understand that my goals are different than those of others, and I completely honor that), but shouldn't we work really, REALLY hard to honor an original intention in the development of Cream Legbars - an autosexing breed? As I understand it, that was SUPER important in its development (compared to subtleties of coloring/cream, etc.) - please correct me if I'm wrong. Given the fact that this is a relatively new breed, and there have been some struggles in attaining SOP (as breeders posting in this thread can attest), at some point will we be forced to choose between autosexing clarity vs. coloration? If so, what will we choose? I think it would be a shame if color "won" at the expense of autosexing (which cannot be assessed in adulthood), and the autosexing characteristics were lost.

Thoughts?

- Ant Farm

Very well said!

Although new to the USA, it's a long-time breed that was nearly lost, so it seems, in the UK. Very few of Punnett's early descendents were left when David Applegarth kind of rescued the breed from extinction in the 1980's I think it was. (This could be referenced on the CL Club's history page)--- In the intervening time though, unknowing - albeit well-meaning people infused other genetics to the CL to increase egg size for example, or egg production-- And even M.Pease stated somewhere or other, or maybe it was Punnett - that a brown Leghorn could be used as an out-cross. Hence - even following their formulae one could introduce crestlessness.

Poultry showing is a real two-edged sword. If it weren't for shows, many people wouldn't even see the breed. Poultry shows will get enthusiasts to work with a breed to try to 'perfect' it for the show world. So part of the popularity is probably due to Jill Rees and others successes in the UK shows allowing us to sit here in the USA and see winning birds -- and have something to model. Punett didn't create the CL and other autosexing breeds for showing - but they have their own definite appeal.

Because it is autosexing, quirky, appealing, crested, softer than silk, etc. a lot of us that are relatively new poultry-keepers, and many urban hen owners living in areas where roosters are forbidden appreciate the appeal of CLs - not to mention the blue eggs. The high price that they can bring -- is another two-edged sword. People will try to propagate the breed, for the money angle. Agreed with earlier statements that there is a difference (huge one IMO) between people who hatch chicks and people who are truly 'breeders'. But the high price may protect them to a degree and get them respect from those who only care about profit -- as well as from those who care more about the chicken profit or no.

IMO possibly some of the lines* -- including the JR line - have mixed in genetics that lighten the color - however, at the same time lessen the strength of the autosexing. As shown lately by occurrences of gender ambiguity.

Add to that -- the Poultry Exhibition only cares about - and can only care about the factual bird that the judge sees at that moment in the show cage. If someone wanted to they could breed a look-alike that perhaps didn't even lay a blue egg -- and wasn't autosexing and have a phenotype CL that lacked the genotype. Our breed is very complex...and we do have, and have had for decades most likely -- the breed in the hands of people with scant knowledge of poultry genetics. Poultry Judge couldn't know the pedigree, if the chick picture pasted on the page was even of that particular chicken as a chick - and what color the egg would be (except on rare occasions)---- And Poultry Judge probably has enough to juggle with out added considerations that are out of their immediate reach

For my part, and hopefully yours and many others -- autosexing will be the top priority - and high production of blue eggs will follow that. how very wonderful to add on the fact that the bird could compete in a show. It goes without saying that the chickens must be very healthy and robust -- but I will say it regardless...and that applies to both the showing and the producing flocks.

Everyone who raises chickens has a different desired outcome -- That is one of the reasons that there are so very many different breeds of chickens. Some in the UK interpreted the SOP that the CL should 'look silver' - and worked to obtain a silver looking chicken - at a cost. The SOP doesn't say 'silver' for the Cream Legbar it says 'cream' - so if the interpretation of cream goes one direction versus another direction the result will have a different appearance. Numerous people are seeking a pale butter color to the hackles - chicken pickin' comes to mind as someone who has that look, and the cream has an iridescent look - it is a beautiful color and it is different from white/silver. Regardless how beautiful the chicken is-- if it isn't autosexing IMO it isn't really a Cream Legbar. If you reference the Club's webpage and look at the "Breed Guide" - the final page of the Guide has some photos of Cream chickens and those are from Chicken pickin's stock.

* Probably all our chickens have mixed in genetics - and none would match the Punnett's day CL 100%. the E-Locus is considered VERY important by fluent geneticists. It was considered that Wild type was correct for Cream Legbars. (chipmunk stripes) -- When the chipmunk pattern starts to vary and get messed up -- then it makes me suspicious of what may be on the E-Locus. JMO.
There is a black-and-white plate from an article showing the various patterns in chick down based the E-Locus. At this moment - I can't locate it -- and I don't think I put it in the Clubhouse where it would be easy to grab. If anyone has it, then please post -- and I will put it in the club house next time I encounter it.

ETA - There are people working with Jill Rees line working on the important characteristics of CLs - one example is Tim Henson in Michigan who is improving the stock that he got - I think maybe he has all that line. Not to do JR line bashing-- because our breed, regardless of line, still needs a lot of work. If someone has JR line -- they may need to work to strengthen autosexing, if someone has my birds, they may need to work to lessen eumelanine, melanin for short.

If someone wants to buy CL from a prestigeous source like GFF - they must buy JR line because that is the one that GFF settled upon. All of us have work, regardless of our chickens backgrounds-- it is just that the JR line is the one popping up with autosexing ambiguity of late. Sellers will use marketing words such as 'from Greenfire Farms' and 'Jill Rees lines' -- both as shorthand for buyers, and marketing tools.

ALL the CLs in the USA are Greenfire Farms -- (well not totally 100% - some people are building their own based on Punnett's formula, and these birds rather than being identified as project birds, are being called CL. Club VP dretd mentioned to me that it would be a favor to the breed and people who are interested in the CL to identify project birds AS project birds, because some of them are far from SOP -- most especially in type -- and type is the number 1 attribute of a breed's appearance.

Glad that you brought it up Ant Farm. :O)

 

[fowlman01]

Very well said!

Although new to the USA, it's a long-time breed that was nearly lost, so it seems, in the UK. Very few of Punnett's early descendents were left when David Applegarth kind of rescued the breed from extinction in the 1980's I think it was. (This could be referenced on the CL Club's history page)--- In the intervening time though, unknowing - albeit well-meaning people infused other genetics to the CL to increase egg size for example, or egg production-- And even M.Pease stated somewhere or other, or maybe it was Punnett - that a brown Leghorn could be used as an out-cross. Hence - even following their formulae one could introduce crestlessness.

Poultry showing is a real two-edged sword. If it weren't for shows, many people wouldn't even see the breed. Poultry shows will get enthusiasts to work with a breed to try to 'perfect' it for the show world. So part of the popularity is probably due to Jill Rees and others successes in the UK shows allowing us to sit here in the USA and see winning birds -- and have something to model. Punett didn't create the CL and other autosexing breeds for showing - but they have their own definite appeal.

Because it is autosexing, quirky, appealing, crested, softer than silk, etc. a lot of us that are relatively new poultry-keepers, and many urban hen owners living in areas where roosters are forbidden appreciate the appeal of CLs - not to mention the blue eggs. The high price that they can bring -- is another two-edged sword. People will try to propagate the breed, for the money angle. Agreed with earlier statements that there is a difference (huge one IMO) between people who hatch chicks and people who are truly 'breeders'. But the high price may protect them to a degree and get them respect from those who only care about profit -- as well as from those who care more about the chicken profit or no.

IMO possibly some of the lines* -- including the JR line - have mixed in genetics that lighten the color - however, at the same time lessen the strength of the autosexing. As shown lately by occurrences of gender ambiguity.

Add to that -- the Poultry Exhibition only cares about - and can only care about the factual bird that the judge sees at that moment in the show cage. If someone wanted to they could breed a look-alike that perhaps didn't even lay a blue egg -- and wasn't autosexing and have a phenotype CL that lacked the genotype. Our breed is very complex...and we do have, and have had for decades most likely -- the breed in the hands of people with scant knowledge of poultry genetics. Poultry Judge couldn't know the pedigree, if the chick picture pasted on the page was even of that particular chicken as a chick - and what color the egg would be (except on rare occasions)---- And Poultry Judge probably has enough to juggle with out added considerations that are out of their immediate reach

For my part, and hopefully yours and many others -- autosexing will be the top priority - and high production of blue eggs will follow that. how very wonderful to add on the fact that the bird could compete in a show. It goes without saying that the chickens must be very healthy and robust -- but I will say it regardless...and that applies to both the showing and the producing flocks.

Everyone who raises chickens has a different desired outcome -- That is one of the reasons that there are so very many different breeds of chickens. Some in the UK interpreted the SOP that the CL should 'look silver' - and worked to obtain a silver looking chicken - at a cost. The SOP doesn't say 'silver' for the Cream Legbar it says 'cream' - so if the interpretation of cream goes one direction versus another direction the result will have a different appearance. Numerous people are seeking a pale butter color to the hackles - chicken pickin' comes to mind as someone who has that look, and the cream has an iridescent look - it is a beautiful color and it is different from white/silver. Regardless how beautiful the chicken is-- if it isn't autosexing IMO it isn't really a Cream Legbar. If you reference the Club's webpage and look at the "Breed Guide" - the final page of the Guide has some photos of Cream chickens and those are from Chicken pickin's stock.

* Probably all our chickens have mixed in genetics - and none would match the Punnett's day CL 100%. the E-Locus is considered VERY important by fluent geneticists. It was considered that Wild type was correct for Cream Legbars. (chipmunk stripes) -- When the chipmunk pattern starts to vary and get messed up -- then it makes me suspicious of what may be on the E-Locus. JMO.
There is a black-and-white plate from an article showing the various patterns in chick down based the E-Locus. At this moment - I can't locate it -- and I don't think I put it in the Clubhouse where it would be easy to grab. If anyone has it, then please post -- and I will put it in the club house next time I encounter it.

ETA - There are people working with Jill Rees line working on the important characteristics of CLs - one example is Tim Henson in Michigan who is improving the stock that he got - I think maybe he has all that line. Not to do JR line bashing-- because our breed, regardless of line, still needs a lot of work. If someone has JR line -- they may need to work to strengthen autosexing, if someone has my birds, they may need to work to lessen eumelanine, melanin for short.

If someone wants to buy CL from a prestigeous source like GFF - they must buy JR line because that is the one that GFF settled upon. All of us have work, regardless of our chickens backgrounds-- it is just that the JR line is the one popping up with autosexing ambiguity of late. Sellers will use marketing words such as 'from Greenfire Farms' and 'Jill Rees lines' -- both as shorthand for buyers, and marketing tools.

ALL the CLs in the USA are Greenfire Farms -- (well not totally 100% - some people are building their own based on Punnett's formula, and these birds rather than being identified as project birds, are being called CL. Club VP dretd mentioned to me that it would be a favor to the breed and people who are interested in the CL to identify project birds AS project birds, because some of them are far from SOP -- most especially in type -- and type is the number 1 attribute of a breed's appearance.

Glad that you brought it up Ant Farm. :O)

Great response! While a judge can only judge what they see, the auto sexing and blue egg laying is a breed characteristics that should be supported and carried on. Because this breed is desired by many new people to poultry, you folks don't have a lot of people that know how to improve this breed. GFF has imported several lines so when someone says they are from GFF you kind of have to know when they got them from GFF. Other than the core group here, I see the Legbars being bred willy nilly to just make money and this is not a new thing........any breed that can make money now is propagated with junk birds. "Lines" don't mean much after a year or two in another persons hands....a line of birds can be ruined in one year although it usually takes two years. Breeding to a written Standard is very difficult with even less complex breeds....these CL's will need very dedicated and knowledgeable breeders.........which is happening. They don't have this breed down in Great Britain either.

Walt