Cream Legbars

[nicalandia]

Hi Nicalandia. I just want to be clear with this fellow you have posted: he is not a Cream Legbar but rather a Dutch? He looks diluted to me. If not by cream, is he diluted by the double barring only?

yes he is Diluted by double barring ONLY, but there is no red enhancers on him,

how can I ( a layman) tell the difference between a non red enhanced crele and a cream crele and a crele with no cream but rather silver.

None red enhanced crele: Henks crele dutch
Cream Crele: Dragonoxeweasel rooster
Silver Crele: Silver Crele Leghorn

ChicKat posted a link to the Brabanter with many different examples of cream and they varied between quite pale and buff. Is the difference in intensity because a bird has 1 instead of 2 copies of cream gene or is it because the base color of the pale one was so much lighter to begin with ( I have seen BBS birds that carrying 1 copy of the blue gene varying from light grey to almost black).

no, the cream gene is an Autosomal recessive and needs two copies to be express unlike Blue which is a dominant gene(two copies of blue will give you spalsh) the difference between a darker cream bird has to do with red enhancers(or lack ther of) the difference of blue shades is because of melanin enahcers or inhibitors.

You have posted the above fellow as an example of what to look for but he is not cream so he is not really what we are looking for. I think that's why I am so very confused! Please help me understand! I need a basic lesson from an expert!

I post henks bird to show you how "Some Chestnut" on shoulder should look like, but only on the shoulders because a cream crele should be one shade more diluted than henks bird on the hackles and saddles



I've been thinking on Recreating or creating a Crested cream lebars look a like(have acess to leghorn and ameraucana type of birds) using ONLY Silver with red enhancers,

Silver Crele birds with Red enhancers or Golden Crele birds(crele mated to silver crele) can look verymuch like the UK SOP birds...

just look at a Silver Duckwing red enhanced male look(Salmon Faverolle as example, I know they are based on eWh wheaten, but they are phenotypically duckwing males) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Faverolles_cock_and_hen_close-up.jpg
adding doulbe barring to this male will produce birds that meet the UK SOP standards for Crested Cream Legbar at least in color(cream with some chestnut)

 

[sol2go]

yes he is Diluted by double barring ONLY, but there is no red enhancers on him,
None red enhanced crele: Henks crele dutch
Cream Crele: Dragonoxeweasel rooster
Silver Crele: Silver Crele Leghorn

no, the cream gene is an Autosomal recessive and needs two copies to be express unlike Blue which is a dominant gene(two copies of blue will give you spalsh) the difference between a darker cream bird has to do with red enhancers(or lack ther of) the difference of blue shades is because of melanin enahcers or inhibitors.



I post henks bird to show you how "Some Chestnut" on shoulder should look like, but only on the shoulders because a cream crele should be one shade more diluted than henks bird on the hackles and saddles



I've been thinking on Recreating or creating a Crested cream lebars look a like(have acess to leghorn and ameraucana type of birds) using ONLY Silver with red enhancers,

Silver Crele birds with Red enhancers or Golden Crele birds(crele mated to silver crele) can look verymuch like the UK SOP birds...

just look at a Silver Duckwing red enhanced male look(Salmon Faverolle as example, I know they are based on eWh wheaten, but they are phenotypically duckwing males) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Faverolles_cock_and_hen_close-up.jpg
adding doulbe barring to this male will produce birds that meet the UK SOP standards for Crested Cream Legbar at least in color(cream with some chestnut)

The non CCL cream examples that ChicKat provided were so clearly not silver and did not have red in their phenotype.

Nicalandia, do you have crested cream legbars in your flock? If so, can you show us examples from your flock that do not have red enhancers? What breed in the background of the CCL would have had red enhancers?

Looking at breeds that rely on their red enhancers, it seems like that color is often fading out and needs to be bred back in. Why do you think it is so prevalent in the CCL, vs what another's eye might describe as "some chestnut"?


Your example of Henks bird, not a CCL, has such a different body shape than the CCL. Is it possible that the body shape of the CCL would provide for more red/chestnut area than your example? And therefore actually be a normal amount of coloration for the CCL breed?

Without having a blood test to discern DragonOxWeasel's rooster's genotype, can you say for sure that he is not expressing silver crele as per your reference to the UK SOP?

I understand that there is a way to scientifically express known genetic factors, and I understand that there are many more factors that result in subtle differences between breeds. Perhaps the red/chestnut component is not as critical as it seems to be to in some opinions.

 

[dretd]

The non CCL cream examples that ChicKat provided were so clearly not silver and did not have red in their phenotype.

Nicalandia, do you have crested cream legbars in your flock? If so, can you show us examples from your flock that do not have red enhancers? What breed in the background of the CCL would have had red enhancers?

Looking at breeds that rely on their red enhancers, it seems like that color is often fading out and needs to be bred back in. Why do you think it is so prevalent in the CCL, vs what another's eye might describe as "some chestnut"?


Your example of Henks bird, not a CCL, has such a different body shape than the CCL. Is it possible that the body shape of the CCL would provide for more red/chestnut area than your example? And therefore actually be a normal amount of coloration for the CCL breed?

Without having a blood test to discern DragonOxWeasel's rooster's genotype, can you say for sure that he is not expressing silver crele as per your reference to the UK SOP?

I understand that there is a way to scientifically express known genetic factors, and I understand that there are many more factors that result in subtle differences between breeds. Perhaps the red/chestnut component is not as critical as it seems to be to in some opinions.

I have the same questions.

I am thinking that one thing that would help me understand is if Nicalandia could post a picture/example of what Henks double barred rooster would look like without any barring. Is he partridge, silver duckwing, gold duckwing? Are CLs supposed to be a partridge ground? I am thinking that this is the real problem preventing me from understanding what the cream+barring is doing: what are examples of the ground color without barring/dilution?

Nicalandia, since you have been so patient with your explanations, could you help out again?

 

[nicalandia]

The non CCL cream examples that ChicKat provided were so clearly not silver and did not have red in their phenotype.

can you provide link of such Non CCL examples? he has posted many birds and I just dont know which one you are refering to, thanks

Nicalandia, do you have crested cream legbars in your flock? If so, can you show us examples from your flock that do not have red enhancers? What breed in the background of the CCL would have had red enhancers?

no I dont and thats why I am providing pics as example(I am in Nicaragua where we dont have many breeds)... CLL have light brown leghorn and native chilean stock(where the cream was extracted from). light brown leghorn are not known to be red enhanced, but the chilean stock could have had some autosomal red in them, but if you see UK stock, they dont look red enhanced, GFF are getting a bad rep in the Rhodebar thread as rhodebar breeders have been getting Rhodebars that lay green eggs and some of them even have crest. and since most of the red enhanced birds in this forums are coming from them GFF it would not be too much of an stretch to think thats where they picked up the red enhancers. Genetically speaking a red enhanced Cream crele bird would look like normal crele bird, Mahogany Mh and Cream ig canceling each other out.

here is the rhodebar links
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/582327/the-rhodebar-thread/150
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/582327/the-rhodebar-thread/630

Your example of Henks bird, not a CCL, has such a different body shape than the CCL. Is it possible that the body shape of the CCL would provide for more red/chestnut area than your example? And therefore actually be a normal amount of coloration for the CCL breed?

the shape of the body has no impact on the amount of color expressed on the birds phenotype.

Looking at breeds that rely on their red enhancers, it seems like that color is often fading out and needs to be bred back in. Why do you think it is so prevalent in the CCL, vs what another's eye might describe as "some chestnut"?

is not prevalent on all Crested Cream Legbars, most of the ones I see on this forum come from GFF. while they are working to get the color right, most of the red enhanced birds showing now came from their first batch

Without having a blood test to discern DragonOxWeasel's rooster's genotype, can you say for sure that he is not expressing silver crele as per your reference to the UK SOP?

without blood test or out cross to light brown leghorn I cant say for sure, he may infact be red enhanced silver crele, red enhanced crele could very well pass for UK SOP CCL, but this is unlikely, GFF seem to lack a dedicated chicken geneticist and they dont have Silver Legbar on stock, and knowing their genetic outcross programe to increase genetic diversity Or lack there of, (they cross CCL to Rhodebar to encrease Rhodebar gene pool for crying outloud)

how would an outcross to light brown leghorn provide proof for silver or gold? easy, lets keep our eyes on the females, if their sire was s+/s+ ig/ig(cream gold) they would be s+/-(gold from father) and Ig+/ig(none cream due to creams recessive nature) leaving us with a normal crele looking hen, now if their sire was infact a red enhanced Silver Crele. then they would have this genotype S/-(Silver from father) and Ig+/ig(none cream due to creams recessive nature) and they would look like your everyday Silver crele hens. not gold.

I understand that there is a way to scientifically express known genetic factors, and I understand that there are many more factors that result in subtle differences between breeds. Perhaps the red/chestnut component is not as critical as it seems to be to in some opinions.

well "Some Chestnut" is permissible as per UK SOP, so yeah some chestnut is allowed on some of the birds shoulder not the whole shoulder.

I have the same questions.

Ask away...!

I am thinking that one thing that would help me understand is if Nicalandia could post a picture/example of what Henks double barred rooster would look like without any barring.

he would look like a gold duckwing bird not a Black Breasted Red bird, a gold ducking birds like Dutch which are also known as light brown dutch bantams, birds like light brown leghorns and the Red Jungle fowl are known phenotypically gold duckwing, gold duckwing is a males phenotype that has not been red enhanced or are somewhat red enhanced but not to the point in calling them Black Breasted Red, therefore this birds when diluted further by homozygous sex linked Barring(B/B) will produce birds that may look like red enhanced cream crele


most of the birds are based on the wildtype e+ e allele(like the red jungle fowl) but some can also be based on the eb brown e allele

example: Partridge wyandottes

others are based on the wheaten eWh e allele.

example wheaten Cubalaya

Flashy wheaten cockerel. Late May hatch. 15/16th cubalaya.

Is he partridge, silver duckwing, gold duckwing? Are CLs supposed to be a partridge ground? I am thinking that this is the real problem preventing me from understanding what the cream+barring is doing: what are examples of the ground color without barring/dilution?

Henk's Dutch rooster is a gold duckwing rooster based on the e+/e+ e allele just like Cream Legbars are, if you were to take the barring and cream out of Cream Legbars they would look like gold duckwing birds just like the light brown leghorn.

this is how they look







Originally Posted by dretd

Nicalandia, since you have been so patient with your explanations, could you help out again?

I'll always help you guys..!

 

[nicalandia]

let see how a gold duckwing or a light brown bird transitions to double barred status and its change on color intensity

normal gold duckwing without red enhancers





single barred Crele(only one copy, most crele breeds out there show this type of single barred males as they show more color than the pale diluted double barres) henks birds



now to the homozygous barred(double barred) male, henks bird, father of above birds

 

[dretd]

let see how a gold duckwing or a light brown bird transitions to double barred status and its change on color intensity

normal gold duckwing without red enhancers

See now this is interesting because when I look at him I see very red shoulders hiding under the hackles yet you say that he is not red enhanced. Is a Partridge or Wheaten boy just a red enhanced Gold Duckwing?

 

[dretd]

If you have the 'Recent Images in this thread' in the right hand bar (where the advertisements are) toward the top -- you may also see what I just noticed.





Of course it is just a tiny thumbnail, but notice how perfectly the Greenfire Farms Cream Legbar is posed in comparison to the diagram. Because there is such a plenitude (vocab word of the day) of hackle feathers the Cream Legbar, the neck looks bigger and more muscular, and it's all feathers, we know how skinny chicken necks are...and the tail is very full and is that 45-degree angle. The wings are well tucked, -- I'm still voting for this bird.

as the best example that I have seen....

I agree with Nicalandia that the Middle Farms birds are very fine examples, but as KPenley pointed out, there is a bit too much white on the wings and they aren't tucked up tightly. This could be a photographic instant, or could also be a trait of the bird.

I have been looking for other examples of British Cream Legbars and kept turning up the Middle Farms examples. I finally found what I think are good examples of roos with tucked up wings but of course the website isn't allowing me to download any of them. Maybe this link has already been shared and old news, but for us noobies it at least gives another reference http://blue-eggs.co.uk/#/photos/4554699814

I really like the look of slide 7 of the first set. What do you guys think? Could this guy be used as a template for the breed like ChicKat suggested or am I way off?

 

[nicalandia]

See now this is interesting because when I look at him I see very red shoulders hiding under the hackles yet you say that he is not red enhanced.

Red shoulders on a wildtype bird without red enhancers is nothing new, infact you can take a look at the Oldest Wildtype gold duckwing birds here

Red Jungle Fowl




now here is the difference between a ¨Gold Duckwing Male¨that is not red enhanced with a Black Brasted Red Male which is is Red enhanced




are Red shoulders on a gold duckwing male a problem? seeing how the Red Jungle fowl have them, then no, the issue is with males that are phenomelanin(red feather color) diluted twice, once by double dose of barring and twice by autosomal recessive cream..

this is what double barring dose do to those red shoulders, but not only his shoulders are diluted, his hackles and saddle feathers are diluted, all by B/B, now take a look and try to imagine how this bird would look if further diluted by the cream gene?

Is a Partridge or Wheaten boy just a red enhanced Gold Duckwing?

no, gold duckwing is just a phenotype(name of how the birds look) gold duckwing birds(at least the Males, females look much different from each other) can be had with the Wheaten eWh e allele and the eb brown partridge e allele as the males I posted on my previous replay, gold duckwing males based on eb are the none red enhanced partridge wyandotte males and also you can have gold duckwing males based on wheaten like the wheaten cubalaya males.

 

[nicalandia]

I really like the look of slide 7 of the first set. What do you guys think? Could this guy be used as a template for the breed like ChicKat suggested or am I way off?

I´ll post the pics for you...




I like him

I like this guy´s color, but I dont like his comb(4th pic of the same slide)

 

[nicalandia]

do you guys want to have a mental picture of the Cream Creasted Legbar without barring and without cream?


this is how a Cream Crele bird looks without double barring but with the cream gene(european leghorn as sample because seems like dutch are too small)





and this is how same breed look withuot the cream gene and without double barring(european light brown leghorn, direct link to CCL)