Cream Legbars

[ChicKat]

This is an excellent explanation - thank you!!!

Paula is waiting for Charlotte to lay first. I'm sure Charlotte is still waiting for Paula. Lissa will probably beat them both. Heck, at this point maybe Dumbledore will lay before they do!

- Ant Farm

Dang!

I think Charlotte is waiting for her two sisters 8-weeks younger to catch up.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

@ChicKat - Genetics question:

I'm not great with chicken genetics (and what's dominant, co-dominant, or recessive). Two practical questions to apply this discussion in action:

1) If the poor auto sexing features are due to an other-than-wild-type allele at the E-locus, then can we be confident that we have avoided this element if we only breed from birds with very clear auto sexing at hatch? Or can this remain hidden and pop up in F1 or later even in parents were excellent auto sexed chicks?

2) Would selecting for blue eggs be as simple as breeding only from pullets/hens laying blue eggs and cockerels/roosters hatched out of blue eggs? (Do I recall correctly that the brown "overlay" is dominant?)

Inquiring minds want to know...

Edit to add: I guess what I'm getting at is - ideally, we would use good auto sexing as an absolute (never breed from birds that weren't clearly auto sexed from hatch). It could be a matter of preference as to whether this should be applied to egg color, but if one felt that green wasn't acceptable, then one could use the same absolute criterion (no breeding from green egg layers or cockerels hatching from green eggs). Then, with that as an absolute base, one could work over time to build on conformation, color, comb, etc., knowing that the key features (auto sexing and egg color) are preserved. One could also select for egg production, of course - it would be a matter of preference.

Am I thinking about this correctly?

- Ant Farm

 

[ChicKat]

@ChicKat - Genetics question:

I'm not great with chicken genetics (and what's dominant, co-dominant, or recessive). Two practical questions to apply this discussion in action:

1) If the poor auto sexing features are due to an other-than-wild-type allele at the E-locus, then can we be confident that we have avoided this element if we only breed from birds with very clear auto sexing at hatch? Or can this remain hidden and pop up in F1 or later even in parents were excellent auto sexed chicks?

2) Would selecting for blue eggs be as simple as breeding only from pullets/hens laying blue eggs and cockerels/roosters hatched out of blue eggs? (Do I recall correctly that the brown "overlay" is dominant?)

Inquiring minds want to know...

- Ant Farm

Such good questions.

There is a B&W diagram of exactly what the E-Locus looks like in chick down. Some non-wild types look a bit similar---and drat -- I cannot put my hands on the diagram right now right now. The author was studying downs.

The definite, clear, unbroken, dorsal stripe that is dark -- and forms a distinct - clear V on the female's forehead is one sign of e+. slightly broken, sometimes shows eb (brown) and completely broken is often eWh (wheaten) -- on the E-Locus -- Sorry I don't have it I will post when I encounter it. -- So starting with your chicks -- yes you should be able to tell the e+ (Wild type ) and select them for breeding. Of course that light head blotch on the boys will indicate a nice dose of B/B for the double factor barring gene. Autosexing has never been a difficulty with my hooligans -- they have other things that need work. :O) -- but I think that years ago when we did a survey and people selected Autosexing as the Number 1 trait of the CL that they were right on target........

Luckily for me -- I was able to attend a seminar that was presented by Grant Brereton who is the UK Plumage genetics expert, author of numbers of books on chicken breeding and chicken genetics, a Class A GBPC judge, and editor of Fancy Fowl magazine -- and a really great to meet and fun guy as well as someone with encyclopedic knowledge -- and one thing he told our session was that if a male has no black on his saddles -- then he is wheaten. -- so when I see a CL male with pure white saddles - I am suspicious of what may underly his E-Locus. Again -- it takes many many many years to have a lot of expertise, it is dimly possible that I could have mis-understood but it was kind of jaw dropping so I asked twice. If I had a male that had no black in the barring on his saddles (or no very distinct darkness contrasting the light -- but rather pure light )-- I wouldn't use him for breeding if I was having difficulty with autosexing.

And yes again -- the browns that turn blue eggs green will be difficult to eradicate -- (which is why I don't want any green influence in my flock -- ) --- by selecting and using blues -- you should be able to get to blue.

Those with insights and experience with these phenom. - please weigh in.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Such good questions.

There is a B&W diagram of exactly what the E-Locus looks like in chick down. Some non-wild types look a bit similar---and drat -- I cannot put my hands on the diagram right now right now. The author was studying downs.

The definite, clear, unbroken, dorsal stripe that is dark -- and forms a distinct - clear V on the female's forehead is one sign of e+. slightly broken, sometimes shows eb (brown) and completely broken is often eWh (wheaten) -- on the E-Locus -- Sorry I don't have it I will post when I encounter it. -- So starting with your chicks -- yes you should be able to tell the e+ (Wild type ) and select them for breeding. Of course that light head blotch on the boys will indicate a nice dose of B/B for the double factor barring gene. Autosexing has never been a difficulty with my hooligans -- they have other things that need work. :O) -- but I think that years ago when we did a survey and people selected Autosexing as the Number 1 trait of the CL that they were right on target........

Luckily for me -- I was able to attend a seminar that was presented by Grant Brereton who is the UK Plumage genetics expert, author of numbers of books on chicken breeding and chicken genetics, a Class A GBPC judge, and editor of Fancy Fowl magazine -- and a really great to meet and fun guy as well as someone with encyclopedic knowledge -- and one thing he told our session was that if a male has no black on his saddles -- then he is wheaten. -- so when I see a CL male with pure white saddles - I am suspicious of what may underly his E-Locus. Again -- it takes many many many years to have a lot of expertise, it is dimly possible that I could have mis-understood but it was kind of jaw dropping so I asked twice. If I had a male that had no black in the barring on his saddles (or no very distinct darkness contrasting the light -- but rather pure light )-- I wouldn't use him for breeding if I was having difficulty with autosexing.

And yes again -- the browns that turn blue eggs green will be difficult to eradicate -- (which is why I don't want any green influence in my flock -- ) --- by selecting and using blues -- you should be able to get to blue.

Those with insights and experience with these phenom. - please weigh in.

Again very very VERY helpful! One wonders if by selecting for the lighter colors that are more popular/show-winning now (Rees-like features), some folks have inadvertently selected for the presence of factors interfering with auto sexing - that could certainly explain the particularly rapid loss of auto sexing in some hands.

So many different things to be aware of when making these breeding decisions...

My pullet that had a broken head vee (Paula) is the only one so far with the best color and no chestnut on her head/neck. The ones with PERFECT auto sexing as chicks seem to be developing a small amount of chestnut on the heads. Everyone's combs are a mess. Such are the challenges when you only have three, of course...

(Dumbledore, on the other hand, is GORGEOUS!)

- Ant Farm

 

[Exotica]

Your babies are getting big! So cute!

Thank you!! Yes they are! It is unfortunate that two from SHR passed.. but I am making the best of it with these two darlings!

Does any one have any info on the Curtis Hale line of CCL? Good? Bad? I hadn't heard of this line. Along those lines, how is the quality of chicks coming out of SHR?

Okay, so I did a bit of research on the Curtis Hale line. So Curtis Hale is a large contributor to Cream Legbars as he breeds, shows, and wins with GORGEOUS birds. I also read somewhere that one of his focuses is better productivity with larger eggs. He's also active in the CL Club and has wrote wonderful articles about the breed. My two chicks were of course from SHR and both beautiful. Some have claimed that because they do not have an unbroken line coming down their head, they have bad auto-sexing qualities while others say it doesn't matter, as long as you can tell male from female, they fit the SOP and are technically auto-sexing.

Regarding color, I wouldn't worry too much (I've copied and pasted this here before which is taken from another thread, when I expressed worry about my chick's head stripe):

Quote from ChicKat:

They're so sweet! (I love baby pictures!) Khaleesi already has a little crest showing! Regarding coloring - I'm not entirely sure you can tell this young - mine are still continuing to evolve and pop up coloring in areas at 23-24 weeks. But you will adore them and it won't matter.

They fly really well into adulthood. Whatever your outdoor plans are for them, keep this in mind. I didn't realize this fully and have had to adjust my plans for confinement when letting them have roaming time. Have had to get on the ladder and pull them out of the oak tree quite a few times...

Maybe Khaleesi just can't pronounce her name...

(JK - cute name. The Naked Necks who have been reluctantly named are Tank, Puppy, Sweetie, and Mr. Green Jeans. Not quite as creative...)

- Ant Farm

Thank you!! I know they're going to go through a molt and I still can't be sure what her chest color is but what I see right now just excites me since I thought she'd have a reddish tint everywhere! Still, it's not set in stone so I hope she doesn't! Oh man.. I am worried now. I have 6 foot cement walls surrounding my yard but I have low hanging trees that lead up to the walls. I'm so afraid one is going to escape.. Are chickens usually comfortable in their surroundings, making them stay in the yard?!

Khaleesi wanted me to give you this:

Haha, I'm just kidding!!

Yeah, I was going for a weird name! She just had this funky little crest so from the moment I saw her, I wanted a verrrry unique name.
Perhaps it was too unique! >< But it's supposed to be Ka-lee-see !
If you've seen Game of Thrones, Khaleesi is what everyone calls the wife of the warlord.
There's a gorgeous character on there (Daenerys) that's the Khaleesi and she's badass!

Love the name Kahleesi I've had chickens named Cersei & Jaime. And Cersei lived up to her name sake. My current group were named by my kids. it was fun explaining to my daughter that she could not name a chicken "Reese's Peanut Buttercup" lol. So she settled for 2 names. Peanut and Buttercup.

I love Cersei and Jaime!! I'm thinking about going with the GoT theme for the rest of my new one's that are coming next week! Awww, your daughter just sounds so adorable!
Is the same chicken named Peanut and Buttercup or two separate ones?

I would measure the chicks in grams so I could get a better calc the percentage of gain.

Thanks for the tip! I'll go tinker around with the scale!
Also, I checked how much it is to get a necropsy from UC Davis and it's $120 not including shipping/packing materials!
That's a bit too expensive for me right now, as I am only a college student ):
Do you know any affordable places in CA or maybe how to package to send deceased chicken bodies out of state?

 

[Dorthia]

Ok since I want to start a breeding program with green egg laying Cream Bars that auto-sex is this a bad thing ?

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Ok since I want to start a breeding program with green egg laying Cream Bars that auto-sex is this a bad thing ?

I can't imagine that it is (unless you're planning to outcross but still call them CLs, which could get messy). You'll just have green eggs instead of blue eggs. (The UK standard allows for either blue or green, as I recall). I would think that the most important thing would be transparency, if you sell or share hatching eggs or chicks that you will call Cream Legbars - so people know they will be getting green egg layers. It's just that a lot of us are obsessed with the blue eggs. I would think that preserving auto sexing would be more important.

If you want to depart from pure CLs and do CL hybrids in your flock, well there are lots of folks doing that as well, in fact, CLs offer fascinating hybrid options - check out the Olive Egger Thread and the Cream Legbar Hybrid thread (both of which I follow). I personally am hoping to use Black Copper Marans over Cream Legbars to breed sex-linked F1 olive eggers some time in the next year or two, though I may end up breeding Naked Necks over Cream Legbars to get really heat resistant birds that lay light green eggs instead, since I have Naked Necks on hand already. Or maybe I'll do both! Chicken math strikes again!!!!!

I'm sure those with more experience and smarts will chime in.

(I am intrigued by your plans for auto sexing birds with varied egg colors - I understand that auto sexing can be hard to develop anew so that it breeds true. Keep us posted...)

- Ant Farm

 

[caychris]

Thanks for the tip! I'll go tinker around with the scale!
Also, I checked how much it is to get a necropsy from UC Davis and it's $120 not including shipping/packing materials!
That's a bit too expensive for me right now, as I am only a college student ):
Do you know any affordable places in CA or maybe how to package to send deceased chicken bodies out of state?

this is the thread https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/799747/how-to-send-a-bird-for-a-necropsy-pictures
for anyone doing one in CA and other places
You should be able to get the necro done for free via that route.(up to 2 birds per day)

 

[MeepBeep]

You'll just have green eggs instead of blue eggs. (The UK standard allows for either blue or green, as I recall).

The UK standard allows for blue, green or olive eggs... The proposed US standard omits olive, but still allows blue or green...

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

The UK standard allows for blue, green or olive eggs... The proposed US standard omits olive, but still allows blue or green...

Yes - thanks for that clarification. It was olive that I was thinking of as being UK only.