Cream Legbars

[terrip824]

Of course the wings shouldn't look weak, but I think in some breeds it is genetic to have a bit different wing angle than horizontal.




While the CL SOP calls for horizontal, the Serama calls for as close to vertical as possible -- it does lead me to wonder if there isn't some genetic basis and it isn't vigor alone that decides.

Any advice ChicKat?

 

[ChicKat]

Any advice ChicKat?

I think it was chicken pickin - and I think that she really did give a good 'plan'. :O)

Yep CP:
My experience is that the Rees line males (also some other CL males) carry their wings very low. Im sure if over time you selected a male each generation that has a slightly higher wing carriage and also paired him with females with good wing carriage or high wing that eventually you will end up with males with the proper wing carriage. Its all about selection and culling.

She has outstanding CLs BTW. -- From me I would say that you may have a general idea of what to improve --and your flock and your choices are what count.... a really clear vision of your desired end product. - You cannot however work on everything at one time IMO -- there is too much complexity in the CL. -- It is also detrimental to a breed IMO to focus on only one trait generation after generation. I'm an advocate that Cream isn't like 'white' -- and that the bird's color is worth 20% or maybe 30% of the total value of the bird-in-the-show. --- IT seems sometimes that all that ever gets discussed is the color. Perhaps that is one reason GaryDean26 was emphasizing the importance of vigor. Of course you want and need a healthy flock! The most - number 1 important thing is the "Type" -- this is the look of the bird, the shape if you will.....or if it were a horse you would look for good 'confirmation'. --

we beginners can easily see the colors - but the type is the real decider. If you go to the CL Club's website, you can see superb examples of type -- one cockerel and a pullet and a hen. These were selected by an APA judge, Paul Gilroy - who judged the facebook online show. -- They are pictured under "show winners".

In short -- long back with a slope to a tail - tail at a lower angle - (I've found that as they age my cockerels lower their tails...my hens and pullets still have high tails - so I'm working on that aspect next)--- I was lucky to have straight combs so I worked on straight combs in the first year...and have a pretty good result with my stock now--- Longer backs -- we found with our cattle that length adds weight -- surprisingly.

Select the important traits that you wish to breed for -- if it is color to you -- then the advice from chicken pickin' is perfect. -- Use what you have and cull hard.

Old timers give the advice 'build the barn before you paint it' -- indicating that coloration can also be obtained down the road when you have the other traits you wish in your flock.

All in all -- keep good records, only select the ones for breeding that show the traits you want in your flock.....and enjoy your CLs.

 

[GaryDean26]

I 'm glad you helped me understand it better. I noticed it a month ago and starting watching him for signs of illness. But he is fine. I just finished checking earlier pics and in most his wings are low. Can you help me understand what you mean by vigor? He is healthy, alert, and appears to be near or at the top of the pecking order. He was crowing at 10 weeks, and starting to act like a normal cockerel in puberty. I have 2 of his brothers and they do not have the low wings. But they have more color and 1 has a lot of chestnut coming in. Normally I pick the more colorful ones. But since I want to breed for cream I thought he was a better choice. Any advice is appreciated.

Vigor is defined as any trait that helps livestock thrive as a farm animal. The traits could be disease resistance they allow them to be productive when others are ill, it could be flightiness that allows them to evade predators when others can't, it could include body weight that allows them not to be pushed away from the feed bucked but other birds in the flock, etc. I is most commonly evaluated in the way the bird moves and the way it carries itself. A cock that struts rather than walking flat footed indicates that is is healthier. A hen that is active and forages all day rather than sit all day by the feed bucket is going to be healthier and more resistant to illness. I like to watch to see who is first off the roost in the morning and who is last into the coop at night. I also like to see steady growth rates a good mature weights. I like to see high production. I like to see good head points, strong wing, good legs, good fertility, etc.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

I think it was chicken pickin - and I think that she really did give a good 'plan'. :O)

Yep CP:
My experience is that the Rees line males (also some other CL males) carry their wings very low. Im sure if over time you selected a male each generation that has a slightly higher wing carriage and also paired him with females with good wing carriage or high wing that eventually you will end up with males with the proper wing carriage. Its all about selection and culling.

She has outstanding CLs BTW. -- From me I would say that you may have a general idea of what to improve --and your flock and your choices are what count.... a really clear vision of your desired end product. - You cannot however work on everything at one time IMO -- there is too much complexity in the CL. -- It is also detrimental to a breed IMO to focus on only one trait generation after generation. I'm an advocate that Cream isn't like 'white' -- and that the bird's color is worth 20% or maybe 30% of the total value of the bird-in-the-show. --- IT seems sometimes that all that ever gets discussed is the color. Perhaps that is one reason GaryDean26 was emphasizing the importance of vigor. Of course you want and need a healthy flock! The most - number 1 important thing is the "Type" -- this is the look of the bird, the shape if you will.....or if it were a horse you would look for good 'confirmation'. --

we beginners can easily see the colors - but the type is the real decider. If you go to the CL Club's website, you can see superb examples of type -- one cockerel and a pullet and a hen. These were selected by an APA judge, Paul Gilroy - who judged the facebook online show. -- They are pictured under "show winners".

In short -- long back with a slope to a tail - tail at a lower angle - (I've found that as they age my cockerels lower their tails...my hens and pullets still have high tails - so I'm working on that aspect next)--- I was lucky to have straight combs so I worked on straight combs in the first year...and have a pretty good result with my stock now--- Longer backs -- we found with our cattle that length adds weight -- surprisingly.

Select the important traits that you wish to breed for -- if it is color to you -- then the advice from chicken pickin' is perfect. -- Use what you have and cull hard.

Old timers give the advice 'build the barn before you paint it' -- indicating that coloration can also be obtained down the road when you have the other traits you wish in your flock.

All in all -- keep good records, only select the ones for breeding that show the traits you want in your flock.....and enjoy your CLs.

This is such a good point, ChicKat. I've had a few conversations in other threads about egg production in CLs. My pullets have laid 6-7 good medium to large eggs per week each since they started a month or two ago (not counting one pullet who is ill), and I've been delighted (and maybe a bit overwhelmed/surprised) at their production capacity. They are hatchery, so I'm not sure of their line other than "mixed lines" and pre-Rees, and they are not perfect feather color-wise, but they are lovely, take good care of themselves, have excellent hawk camouflage, and I would not trade them for anything. The eggs continue to grow in size (as would be indicated by data shared by... I think it was GaryDean?) - I weigh each egg, I'm a geek like that. A number of folks on BYC (other threads) have either made the assumption out of hand that CLs are poor producers of eggs, or have direct experience of them having poor production, and I have shared my own contrary experience. I believe we have talked about some line-specific differences in this here on this thread (unless I'm mixing my threads).

I feel like I must be getting SO annoying when I keep saying this (if so, just move on to the next post

), but some of the original goals for the Cream Legbars were egg production related: Good, efficient and dependable producer of eggs (leghorn component?), blue (or greenish) eggs (not sure how "production" this would be considered back when Punnett was working, or what his motivation was on this, but blue eggs are certainly a bonus nowadays), and auto sexing (knowing which are pullets right up front, important in a breed kept for egg laying).

What I dearly hope is that all us good folks will continue to work with MULTIPLE lines of the CL, in order to both increase diversity and also not risk losing characteristics altogether that may have been selected against in certain lines. I'm pleased that there will apparently be different categories of coloring - they may help keep the breed from bottlenecking or losing diversity in the US.

I can't wait to begin hatching babies next spring! I'll just have to remind myself to put my money where my mouth is when I'm faced with my own birds, with regard to selection and culling.

- Ant Farm

 

[MeepBeep]

What I dearly hope is that all us good folks will continue to work with MULTIPLE lines of the CL, in order to both increase diversity and also not risk losing characteristics altogether that may have been selected against in certain lines.

This I agree with, maybe it's a skewed perception but my feeling is that a lot of casual breeders followed Greenfires lead and have abandoned the earlier imported lines in favor of the Rees line...

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

This I agree with, maybe it's a skewed perception but my feeling is that a lot of casual breeders followed Greenfires lead and have abandoned the earlier imported lines in favor of the Rees line...

Yes, this worries me... I figure more lines, more to work with...

- Ant Farm

 

[PDPercherons]

While I'm "new" to the breed, genetic diversity is also a concern I've had from the get go. I'm honestly taking notes as I read through the Legbar threads. I too weigh eggs and keep track of production, in this case my Andalusians.

 

[ChicKat]

I weigh them too -- but I must admit, I have lost count.....and with the molts and the short days -- I'm down to one layer and a couple that are due to come online before too much time passes.

BYC took a survey awhile back and I think that the number 1 reason people get into chickens is for backyard eggs.... they then discover how much they LIKE having chickens and they get into them for pets, breeding, showing etc. etc. - but regarding is it the chicken or the egg -- I think it is the egg.

Autosexing, blue-as-possible*, and cute crested healthy chickens will always be my focus... and I will probably always have Legbars just because of the autosexing - and they appeal to me most of all the autosexing breeds. Just like Fire Ant Farm -- I want really good production - it's way up there in importance.

I have a contractor here building a huge and gorgeous garage for me -- and when they started I was swimming in eggs - so he was bragging on my chickens the other day I overheard him saying -- "oh her chickens lay blue and green eggs" I have Isbars and Legbars -- and you can definitely tell the coloration difference...maybe the Isbar greens make the Legbar eggs look bluer -- but it was interesting to hear it from someone not involved in chickens. We won't ever be navy blue or cadet blue ---etc.... but I think we can honestly call our eggs blue.

Why blue? Punnett was just showing off that he could separate the blue egg gene from the pea comb......

(take it with a grain of salt)

 

[ChicKat]

This I agree with, maybe it's a skewed perception but my feeling is that a lot of casual breeders followed Greenfires lead and have abandoned the earlier imported lines in favor of the Rees line...

One needs to remember that the business model for GFF is to make money selling rare chicks. Probably they invested enough into the Rees line, and had their orders coming in for Rees due to the excitement of the 'new', and as a consequence discontinued the non-Rees. BTW, Jill Rees has a cockerel that won in UK's big year-end show and it looks, to my eye, a lot better than the ones that have gone before. To keep their profitability high (I'm guessing that is their motivation) , GFF decided to only keep one line of CLs and so they kept Rees as the latest and greatest. But those with concern that this is a narrow gene pool are probably on to something. There are a few 'problems' with the Rees line -- and they have been mentioned in the threads. I think that there are people who have Rees line that have selected away from the problems and have some quality chickens due to their own efforts. Tim Henson, in Michigan, had nice Rees line, and one of the winners of the Facebook show, Michael Baker, has a nice pullet that traces to Rees line..... Since GFF is considered the ultimate source in the commercial world -- and since they have GFF -- it kind of narrows people's choices. One would have to do some real research to find lines that they liked -- that were non-Rees -- and so Rees will probably become the 'future' of the breed.

Yes, this worries me... I figure more lines, more to work with...

- Ant Farm

There will be some that don't introduce Rees line blood to their flocks -- just for egg coloration for one of several reasons. -- It really, also is hard in some ways to 'blame' it all on the Rees line -- because in general only a small percentage of hatchlings should be selected as breeders but when people have a pair or a trio newly bought -- those are the ones that they can select from for breeding. Especially since they are sent out as day-olds -- it is difficult to know exactly what the chick will grow into. Some people think that GFF should 'cull' -- but that isn't quite their business model as I understand it -- that is the job of the breeders.... GFF provide the possibility to develop good chickens. As I said -- some have developed nice chickens from their Rees originals. Again, it isn't so much the fault of Rees chicks -- because each and everyone is sent out -- and the only selection would be ones that were really bad...or didn't survive the trip.

While I'm "new" to the breed, genetic diversity is also a concern I've had from the get go. I'm honestly taking notes as I read through the Legbar threads. I too weigh eggs and keep track of production, in this case my Andalusians.

In some ways you are 'lucky' -- because the water that has gone under the bridge already won't be a concern to you. If you bought from GFF once they sold off their other lines -- your only choice was Rees lines.....

Since it is a complex breed, and old timers have their commitments elsewhere -- it is the newer people who are gravitating toward the CLs -- and there are some years of work ahead to 'perfect' the breed for everyone.

Each time I see your sig - I want to see some horses!

-- but I guess that wouldn't be too Cream Legbarish would it?

 

[MeepBeep]

One needs to remember that the business model for GFF is to make money selling rare chicks.  Probably they invested enough into the Rees line, and had their orders coming in for Rees due to the excitement of the 'new', and as a consequence discontinued the non-Rees.

I fully understand Greenfires reason for rotating to the Rees lines, they are in the business of importing and flipping the offspring for a return on profit until the hype dies down and then they move on to the next new import... IMO GFF is not really a breeder, more so a bulk wholesaler...

But, that same reasoning doesn't resonate with me for the casual breeders that followed suit and mostly stopped breeding the earlier CL lines once GF stopped...

The limited gene pool and makes it harder if not impossible to correct the flaws of any line, sometimes you just need some fresh outside blood to do that...