Cream Legbars

[chicken pickin]

Smaller combs, especially the Roos, would be good for really cold NH winters for sure

I agree with you on this.

Hi from NH as well. I have 15 CL. I have had a few male CL lose their combs unfortunately. I hope the rose combs work out for you.

 

[rottlady]

I agree with you on this.

Hi

from NH as well. I have 15 CL. I have had a few male CL lose their combs unfortunately. I hope the rose combs work out for you.

thanks. No guarantee any of the chicks in egg will have it, just a chance I'll get one

We are in Unity right now but that could change (Landlady just listed the house on us)

 

[chicken pickin]

Oh thats a bummer.

Were down in Derry.

 

[Bantambird]

I have a smaller coop I used d just for my Legbar boys this last winter that was heated. We almost always have at least one week of 30 below here, and you never know when in winter it is. My Marans rooster was ruling the big pen where everyone else was, so I decided to save combs and put the 2 younger boys in a small coop. Worked out for all the boys. It seems the girls are OK as long as they don't do anything stupid like running outside in the wind when it's below zero.

 

[dretd]

 


Definitely time for all the Sherlocks out there to put their Thinking Deerstalkers on and come up with some other ideas!

Hi Dr ETD - nice to see you on the BYC forum.  

• Hatched April 10th.
• [COLOR=222222]Epistasis[/COLOR][COLOR=222222] is a phenomenon that consists of the effect of one gene being dependent on the presence of one or more 'modifier genes' (genetic background). Similarly, [/COLOR][COLOR=222222]epistatic[/COLOR][COLOR=222222] mutations have different effects in combination than individually.  Could be going on with some other recessives in CL that we don't know about -- I think I did point to that in my original post, not sure that they even know all the recessives for black...[/COLOR]
• I'll quote your quote and raise you 5  
  • 
    [COLOR=0000FF]It appears that Ml is an (incompletely) dominant trait and you shouldn't see that much amplification of the trait with two copies, certainly not enough for it to be hidden with one copy anyway. If you go to http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html  they talk about the different genes especially with regard to down color. Here is an excerpt from the talk on Ml (I am bolding the parts I think are most relevant):[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=0000FF]"First described by Moore and Smyth (1971), after extracting it from a random breeding recessive white population previously described by Jeffrey (1947). Ml is incompletely dominant autosomal mutation that extends eumelanin into the normally red areas of pyle-zoned fowl, while having little effect on the chick down colour. Heterozygotes on wild-type (e+) or brown (eb) backgrounds are distinctly darker, particularly in the hackle and head; however, Ml/ml+ has little effect on eWh/eWh females[/COLOR][COLOR=FF0000]. Homozygotes approach self blackness, but the salmon pigment of the wildtype and wheaten females remain evident.  *[/COLOR]
    
  • [COLOR=0000FF]•  Ml found in the Quail pattern (Campo and Oronzco, 1986)[/COLOR]
  • [COLOR=0000FF]•  The Melanotic gene by itself does not make a wild-type bird black."  <---- as we often interpret things differently -- the gene by itself -- meaning less than one copy?[/COLOR]

This chick is a homozygote and does express what almost looks like self-black.  With really careful examination - I can see vestigal chipmunk stripes -- and I suspect adult plumage will display a salmon breast..  There could be epistatic action -- and I will go to Classroom in the coop and post her for the gurus there.... as time will permit. 

Absolutely some epistasis may be going on. I am sure there are all sorts of influences going on in this breed including something dampening the expression of the cresting gene but that's another conversation!

The way I interpret the 'red' quote is that the homozygous reference was to adult plumage with the salmon breast still apparent. The chick you are showing us is still in the downy state where the reference says the wild type down is still apparent. I was thinking that it would be closer to the chick I showed with the blackish dorsal stripe. The pictures I've seen of Brassy Backs look more wild type. I was thinking more like your bird might be some crazy recessive black instead of a dominant trait, especially since your parents don't appear overly melanized.

I can't wait to see how she feathers out! In theory, if she is homozygous for Ml, she will be Brown-grey enhanced with the black melanin but will also be barred. How much of an influence will that black have? If it is near complete but she is barred, would she look more like a cuckoo marans with a semi-salmon breast than a cream Legbar?

This is quite a puzzle. I hope you do continue to post as she matures. I also would love it if you could post a link to the coop conversation if you start a thread in her. If you have it in your flock it stands to reason other folks have it in theirs so it would be awesome to be able to tell other breeders what it is.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Quote: Hi Dr ETD - nice to see you on the BYC forum.

• Hatched April 10th.
• [COLOR=222222]Epistasis is a phenomenon that consists of the effect of one gene being dependent on the presence of one or more 'modifier genes' (genetic background). Similarly, epistatic mutations have different effects in combination than individually. Could be going on with some other recessives in CL that we don't know about -- I think I did point to that in my original post, not sure that they even know all the recessives for black...[/COLOR]
• I'll quote your quote and raise you 5
  
  • 
    [COLOR=0000FF]It appears that Ml is an (incompletely) dominant trait and you shouldn't see that much amplification of the trait with two copies, certainly not enough for it to be hidden with one copy anyway. If you go to http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html they talk about the different genes especially with regard to down color. Here is an excerpt from the talk on Ml (I am bolding the parts I think are most relevant):[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=0000FF]"First described by Moore and Smyth (1971), after extracting it from a random breeding recessive white population previously described by Jeffrey (1947). Ml is incompletely dominant autosomal mutation that extends eumelanin into the normally red areas of pyle-zoned fowl, while having little effect on the chick down colour. Heterozygotes on wild-type (e+) or brown (eb) backgrounds are distinctly darker, particularly in the hackle and head; however, Ml/ml+ has little effect on eWh/eWh females[/COLOR][COLOR=FF0000]. Homozygotes approach self blackness, but the salmon pigment of the wildtype and wheaten females remain evident. *[/COLOR]
  • [COLOR=0000FF]• Ml found in the Quail pattern (Campo and Oronzco, 1986)[/COLOR]
  • [COLOR=0000FF]• The Melanotic gene by itself does not make a wild-type bird black." <---- as we often interpret things differently -- the gene by itself -- meaning less than one copy?[/COLOR]

This chick is a homozygote and does express what almost looks like self-black. With really careful examination - I can see vestigal chipmunk stripes -- and I suspect adult plumage will display a salmon breast.. There could be epistatic action -- and I will go to Classroom in the coop and post her for the gurus there.... as time will permit.

Absolutely some epistasis may be going on. I am sure there are all sorts of influences going on in this breed including something dampening the expression of the cresting gene but that's another conversation!

The way I interpret the 'red' quote is that the homozygous reference was to adult plumage with the salmon breast still apparent. The chick you are showing us is still in the downy state where the reference says the wild type down is still apparent. I was thinking that it would be closer to the chick I showed with the blackish dorsal stripe. The pictures I've seen of Brassy Backs look more wild type. I was thinking more like your bird might be some crazy recessive black instead of a dominant trait, especially since your parents don't appear overly melanized.

I can't wait to see how she feathers out! In theory, if she is homozygous for Ml, she will be Brown-grey enhanced with the black melanin but will also be barred. How much of an influence will that black have? If it is near complete but she is barred, would she look more like a cuckoo marans with a semi-salmon breast than a cream Legbar?

This is quite a puzzle. I hope you do continue to post as she matures. I also would love it if you could post a link to the coop conversation if you start a thread in her. If you have it in your flock it stands to reason other folks have it in theirs so it would be awesome to be able to tell other breeders what it is.
My main rooster Dumbledore is from ChicKat, out of Robin and Ice, and I was planing to cross his daughters back to him, so I definitely want to know!!!! Super fun!

- Ant Farm

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Speaking of Dumbledore, I think I posted here when he played hero and got attacked by dogs while trying to draw them away and protect the rest of the chickens. I thought I'd post a follow up.

As a reminder - before picture:


After the attack:


Recovering:


And now healed - he got his tail back, though it's different (some feathers came in partially white, which weren't there before), and there's really significant scarring on his "parson's nose" (a great big chunk of flesh was missing), so he will never get some of those tail feathers back. He also has some scarring on his neck - you can see in the second photo where it seems that some feathers are missing.




Anyhow, he's doing great, better than ever. My little Captain America...

- Ant Farm

 

[OneMountainAcres]

it looks like I finally got my first double cream cockerel in this hatch! Now I'm not so antsy about finding a cream rooster. I have to see how he grows! I am so very excited!

What is a double cream and is it special? I think I got one in my hatch a few weeks ago. If it's something special, I need to get out there and Try to mark which one before he loses ALL his baby fluff lol. Hoping it's not too late already!

 

[ChicKat]

Speaking of Dumbledore, I think I posted here when he played hero and got attacked by dogs while trying to draw them away and protect the rest of the chickens. I thought I'd post a follow up.

As a reminder - before picture:


..............

And now healed - he got his tail back, though it's different (some feathers came in partially white, which weren't there before), and there's really significant scarring on his "parson's nose" (a great big chunk of flesh was missing), so he will never get some of those tail feathers back. He also has some scarring on his neck - you can see in the second photo where it seems that some feathers are missing.




Anyhow, he's doing great, better than ever. My little Captain America...

- Ant Farm

Glad he is doing well.

I have noticed that trauma in my flock can result in white feathers. When Amazing Grace had her wing torn off -- she had some strange white stripes during subsequent growth. If a chick went through trauma or illness -- I saw more white -- or even wider bars. Kind of makes sense since the default feathers are white -- it could be that the pigment doesn't get added during the growth time when the chicken is fighting to live, or to regain health.

 

[ChicKat]

Absolutely some epistasis may be going on. I am sure there are all sorts of influences going on in this breed including something dampening the expression of the cresting gene but that's another conversation!

The way I interpret the 'red' quote is that the homozygous reference was to adult plumage with the salmon breast still apparent. The chick you are showing us is still in the downy state where the reference says the wild type down is still apparent. I was thinking that it would be closer to the chick I showed with the blackish dorsal stripe. The pictures I've seen of Brassy Backs look more wild type. I was thinking more like your bird might be some crazy recessive black instead of a dominant trait, especially since your parents don't appear overly melanized.

I can't wait to see how she feathers out! In theory, if she is homozygous for Ml, she will be Brown-grey enhanced with the black melanin but will also be barred. How much of an influence will that black have? If it is near complete but she is barred, would she look more like a cuckoo marans with a semi-salmon breast than a cream Legbar?

This is quite a puzzle. I hope you do continue to post as she matures. I also would love it if you could post a link to the coop conversation if you start a thread in her. If you have it in your flock it stands to reason other folks have it in theirs so it would be awesome to be able to tell other breeders what it is.

Yes, any added hypothesis are welcome --

Mine came from a start checking the chicken calculator -- (anyone with interest in this can 'play along with me' -- )

http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

The default image is wild-type -- aka BBR, gold duckwing, partridge if you are in Europe or BBR depending upon the breed and locale and colloquial usage
http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

Go to the barring locus in the list of genes below the image and change it to B/B df (double factor) on the male and B on the female
Go to the inhibitor of gold and change Ig+ to the lower case ig in both the genes on that locus in the male and the female
Go to the ml+ and put in one uppercase Ml and one lower case ml+. --

as you made the gene changes you caused different appearances in the diagram image at the top. Now click the button 'Calculate Crossing'

when you combine barring and Ml -- it flips to 'no image available' for the female-- if you back off the barring this is where the Ml (one copy only) is expected to influence the hen's plumage:

The 'no image available ' is described as :
black patterned lemon/cream incomplete quail?•Q(wildfarbig) barred

so far so good.....

then google wildfarbig:

Dr etd here is the classroom in the coop thread
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=89030

Of course these examples of wildfarbig aren't barred.....

Also if you read the classroom in the coop thread... KazJaps points out some genes that he/she had encountered that may be influencing some CLs -- Champagne blond and Dilute -- Just some more ideas for cogitation.

Definitely I have seen CLs that are this dark -- but never until now put 2 and 2 together. If the person who posted the CL -- that I remember saying 'that's the darkest CL I have ever seen' reads this -- please update us on that pullet. Thanks.