Cream Legbars

[cutipatooti]

they are on top of their cage They live in a 4x4x4' dog ex pen with a top in my office. They were supposed to be in a coop by now but Landlady sold house out from under us and so we decided it was easier to move lumber than a coop I have these 3 Legbars, and 4 Barnevelders in this cage and 8 Delawares and 2 Legbar babies in a 29 x 29" puppy pen so 18 chicks in my office AND 6 eggs in the incubator dear God LOL

Our landlady is doing the same thing to us. I have the lumber and decided I was not going to build now. But mine are bigger and are outside. I started to loose a few of my birds to predators so I started building. I'm doing it in a way that I will be able to dismantle and rebuild when we find somewhere else to live. If we ever do.

 

[cheepchickery]

Hey! I'm new to the chicken world and I have a question. Why do some creme legbars not have crest? My understanding is the first group greenfire imported didn't have crest? Also, I've been told if you have a non-crested hen you can mate her with a crested rooster and produce crested offspring? Does anyone know anything about this?

 

[ChicKat]

I am by no means an expert at roos or breeding. But seems to me I read that one Marek's chick vaccination is not enough to repel Marek's and that there needs to be follow-up boosters? Also, that if a chicken is exposed to Marek's but doesn't show symptoms, later in the chicken's life the Marek's virus will cause internal cancerous growths in adult life. Since so many chicken diseases can show cancerous growths at necropsy a lot of test results will assume that Marek's was the cause of the cancerous death of a chicken. Plus Marek's has about 5 different strains and the vaccine is no guarantee to cover all 5. @casportpony has dealt with so many chicken diseases/issues/treatments/vaccines, and started many threads on diseases this may be a good person to start with and PM a question to.

There a lot of myths and misunderstanding about Merek's --

Here is a member page I started some time ago (2012) -- asking for help from the BYc community -- so there are some really good contributors - both experientially and research-wise. --
https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/mareks-disease-fact-site
Also -- although it is in the page -I'm putting a link to Nambroth's Merek's page.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq

https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/mareks-disease-fact-site

Anyone who has something to contribute -- especially if it is research backed, please feel free to post -- but Please -- nothing that is boarderline -- for example -- not trying to hurt anyone's feelings -- but there are some approaches that actually introduce poisons to the chicken's system in the name of medications. The intention is NOT to start a medication discussion -- it is to ask that only fact-based (e.g. university researched) articles are attached.

Here is an example of a product that some tout that I would request NOT be attached.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/PhonyAds/silverad.html
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l.../expert-answers/colloidal-silver/faq-20058061
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...tid=779&activeingredientname=colloidal silver

although the above evaluations - such as the one from the Mayo clinic - are regarding human consumption -- I would expect it is NOT given to chickens -- and some promise the product as the 'cure' for Marek's --

 

[ChicKat]

Hey! I'm new to the chicken world and I have a question. Why do some creme legbars not have crest? My understanding is the first group greenfire imported didn't have crest? Also, I've been told if you have a non-crested hen you can mate her with a crested rooster and produce crested offspring? Does anyone know anything about this?

Hey there cheepchickery!

Welcome to BYC!!

and AntFarm -- this affects you as well
.

IF it doesn't have a crest-- it isn't a CL. In general the APA has lack of a crest on a crested breed -- as a DQ -- but it has also been added to the CL SOP as a reminder -- without a crest the bird would be Disqualified in a show. There are other legbars that are crestless -- sliver and gold -- but those have not gotten a foothold in the USA to my knowledge -- it would be something found in Australia.

Regarding CLs still being crestless after all this time -- that's soooo interesting.

The breed is crested. The cresting gene is INCOMPLETE dominant. -- That means two cresting genes = a normal CL crest -- (but I see some hens with such volume I wonder if they have three they are so bouffant (THAT was a joke -- btw - the locus has room for two genes)) -- so cresting genes can (obviously) have different strengths of expression. The chickens without crests have no cresting genes.... Because it is incomplete dominant -- one Cresting gene will show as a smaller crest........


Now if someone wanted to have a CL male that had a better comb (thinking male here) -- they may want to have only one cresting gene -- because it would make a smaller crest -- the male would tend to have less of a battle going on for the space on the top of his skull -- and there would be more real estate for his comb - hence less likelihood of malformed comb. Since if were such a male used for breeding it would pass the defect into the future of the breed IMO --

As long as single-gene crested birds are bred forward -- the chance of crestlessness will pop up -- (think Punnett square here) -- a bird would simply need to have two recessive non-cresting gene and there you go. The symbols are Cr for Crest -- and lower case cr for no crest if you want to go to the chicken calculator and play around with the results.

In some article I wrote for the CL Club there is a photo of a suspected single cresting gene female....so if you are a member you could look in the "Clubhouse" and find the photo.

 

[duluthralphie]

I read someone on here, BYC, making the argument the crest was not required. I thought that was the reason the name was changed from "crested Cream Legbar".

Personally, I like the crest, even in the male a small crest is nice. It does make a smaller comb, but that does not bother me as long as I have 6-7 good points on the comb. They do tend to get a slight wave, which bothers me.

I find it a "breeding paradox" a good show rooster may not be a good breeding rooster.

 

[ChicKat]

I read someone on here, BYC, making the argument the crest was not required. I thought that was the reason the name was changed from "crested Cream Legbar".

Personally, I like the crest, even in the male a small crest is nice. It does make a smaller comb, but that does not bother me as long as I have 6-7 good points on the comb. They do tend to get a slight wave, which bothers me.

I find it a "breeding paradox" a good show rooster may not be a good breeding rooster.

Hi duluthralphie --

Here's a link to the SOP
http://www.creamlegbarclub.com/29-standard-of-perfection

Here is a quote:
"

DISQUALIFICATIONS
Absence of crest. (See General Disqualifications and Cutting for Defects.)"
​

Also, just like you, I think that the crest is something that the CL should have.

The point you make about the breeding paradox is so true and here is where IMO showing goes wrong. -- And this I suppose could open a Pandora's Box of controversey... especially in UK and Europe where they take showing to the limits -- they have lines of birds especially to produce one or the other gender for show. So an incorrect female line to produce their cockerel line -- and an incorrect male line to produce their pullet line. There are some breeds who's pattern cannot be right unless they do this. :O(

Some have said -- that if that is the case -- in-other-words -- if there is no way that genetically a prize winning cockerel could produce a to-standard daughter -- or vice-versa -- then there should be two different varieties. I really see their point.

There may be a number of reasons that the breeding birds and the show birds are different.... for one thing, maybe not risking your breeders to what diseases that your showers would be exposed to -- I guess it is partly how one's breed's genetics shake out -- and how important show winning is to one's flock management.....

 

[duluthralphie]

Hi duluthralphie --

Here's a link to the SOP
http://www.creamlegbarclub.com/29-standard-of-perfection

Here is a quote:
"

DISQUALIFICATIONS​

Absence of crest. (See General Disqualifications and Cutting for Defects.)"​

​

Also, just like you, I think that the crest is something that the CL should have.

The point you make about the breeding paradox is so true and here is where IMO showing goes wrong. -- And this I suppose could open a Pandora's Box of controversey... especially in UK and Europe where they take showing to the limits -- they have lines of birds especially to produce one or the other gender for show. So an incorrect female line to produce their cockerel line -- and an incorrect male line to produce their pullet line. There are some breeds who's pattern cannot be right unless they do this. :O(

Some have said -- that if that is the case -- in-other-words -- if there is no way that genetically a prize winning cockerel could produce a to-standard daughter -- or vice-versa -- then there should be two different varieties. I really see their point.

There may be a number of reasons that the breeding birds and the show birds are different.... for one thing, maybe not risking your breeders to what diseases that your showers would be exposed to -- I guess it is partly how one's breed's genetics shake out -- and how important show winning is to one's flock management.....

I cannot argue with anything you said. BUT I can expound on it..

However, on a rooster the crest can be pretty darn small.

There is a breeders paradox also, even the non-show person wants birds that would show or could show. I think BYC does some to spread that paradox. We all hear on hear about hatchery quality birds and so many of us complain about them. The only exception I see is people looking for egg color.

Some of us want it all. Nice eggs, good layer flock and a pretty egg basket......

To me the show people/attitude is wrong when it emphasizes a trait that cannot be passed to the show birds offspring. A good show bird should be one that has great traits it can pass to all it's offspring. More like the prize Bull that can bring his size and cuts or milk production to his calves.

 

[Bantambird]

I cannot argue with anything you said.    BUT I can expound on it..     However, on a rooster the crest can be pretty darn small.

There is a breeders paradox also, even the non-show person wants birds that would show or could show.  I think BYC does some to spread that paradox. We all hear on hear about hatchery quality birds and so many of us complain about them.  The only exception I see is people looking for egg color.

Some of us want it all. Nice eggs, good layer flock and a pretty egg basket......

To me the show people/attitude is wrong when it emphasizes a trait that cannot be passed to the show birds offspring. A good show bird should be one that has great traits it can pass to all it's offspring.   More like the prize Bull that can bring his size and cuts or milk production to his calves.

This reminds me of the Aracauna tufting problem. Tufting is a lethal gene, yet to show you have to have them. In your breeder pen if both parents have a tufting gene, 25% are going to get 2 copies of this gene and be DIS right off the bat, and 25% won't have any tufts at all. I remember using bantam Aracauna as my 4H breeder project birds.

 

[duluthralphie]

This reminds me of the Aracauna tufting problem. Tufting is a lethal gene, yet to show you have to have them. In your breeder pen if both parents have a tufting gene, 25% are going to get 2 copies of this gene and be DIS right off the bat, and 25% won't have any tufts at all. I remember using bantam Aracauna as my 4H breeder project birds.

I did not know that, but that sure shows the problem of the SOPs and show birds versus production birds. We, or maybe it is just me, are so vain we want birds that look pretty according to the accepted standard which means the SOP's people see at the county and state fairs when they look at our birds. When we really should have production type birds.....Strange creatures us humans are!

 

[Sylvester017]

There a lot of myths and misunderstanding about Merek's --

Here is a member page I started some time ago (2012) -- asking for help from the BYc community -- so there are some really good contributors - both experientially and research-wise. --
https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/mareks-disease-fact-site
Also -- although it is in the page -I'm putting a link to Nambroth's Merek's page.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq

https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/mareks-disease-fact-site

Anyone who has something to contribute -- especially if it is research backed, please feel free to post -- but Please -- nothing that is boarderline -- for example -- not trying to hurt anyone's feelings -- but there are some approaches that actually introduce poisons to the chicken's system in the name of medications. The intention is NOT to start a medication discussion -- it is to ask that only fact-based (e.g. university researched) articles are attached.

Here is an example of a product that some tout that I would request NOT be attached.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/PhonyAds/silverad.html
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l.../expert-answers/colloidal-silver/faq-20058061
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...tid=779&activeingredientname=colloidal silver

although the above evaluations - such as the one from the Mayo clinic - are regarding human consumption -- I would expect it is NOT given to chickens -- and some promise the product as the 'cure' for Marek's --

One thing that is aggravating is finding that so many chickeneers get reports back on necropsies with cancerous growth but the report might say inconclusive it was Marek's or might be something else. Hate Marek's whatever it is!