Cream Legbars

[jerryse]

OK, so here is why I REALLY hope that the US SOP ends up allowing for several different color varieties for CLs. I personally do not like this bird aesthetically at all - looks like some washed out poorly barred version of a PBR to my eyes. I find the more colorful versions much more appealing (and I know others do as well):



Then again, @rottlady really likes this bird - and obviously a lot of other folks do as well for it to be the "ideal" British SOP cock bird. And there are a lot of both types of birds around, it seems. I'd like for there to be room to appreciate both.

- Ant Farm

I have to agree . I like this color .

 

[jerryse]

These are mixes . I have asked others before why this half Legbar cock is this light . I was told it was the barring doing this . I was expecting a more crele color since cream is recessive . I wonder if silver is in these Legbar . The British seem to prefer the silver crele look . Just my mind trying to understand what I see . Yet I see no silver looking hens . Just seems odd to me .

 

[rottlady]

are there paintings of what punnet considered his ideal?

 

[duluthralphie]

I have to agree . I like this color .

Not only do I like that color, I like the barring better than on the ideal British bird. The barring is blurry to me on that one.

 

[ChicKat]

are there paintings of what punnet considered his ideal?

Make no mistake...

- the artist representation is Leghorn chickens and not Legbar. The similarity is the genetic combination of e+/e+ and B/B or B/w. You do bring up a good point too -- that different breeds of chickens will manifest the barring that the underlying genes cause - in different ways in the different breeds. I think the example of Crele OEGB was a good one -- although the hatchery link doesn't work any longer --

Here is a cackle hatchery OEGB barred:

shows the more messy barring -- and the barring makes a V rather than a straight line -- also lots of space between the bars

-- contrast that with a Barred Rock bantam -- straight and neat barring:


So different breeds -- differing manifestation of the barring gene. Perhaps one reason why the crele OEGB looks so different from other creles. And since the barring in question is actually the Cuckoo type -- a comparison with a Dominique would be more appropo:

So it's no wonder that once the CL went ultra light - it got a lot of comparison to a poorly barred breed that was known for barring. Lots of folks who left did so because if they wanted just a barred bird -- they would go to one of the breeds famous for barring - Dominique or Barred Plymouth Rock.

Here is how barring --- and in this case even a crele -- probably a true gold crele -- is presented in the Orpington breed--- very similar to the CL barring:

From E-bay - you can see on this above birds wing-triangle that the barring interrupts gold (brown) with white stripes and you can see the darker bar right below the shoulder pad. (which is red. -- The wing triangle is usually how chicken experts determine if the bird is gold or silver.... the "cream gene" is a dilution of gold...so if that Orpington were to be cream the orange bars would in theory be cream.........

Not only do I like that color, I like the barring better than on the ideal British bird. The barring is blurry to me on that one.

Perhaps as Jerryse has said the ideal UK example is a bit different from the one that was described. the SOP does allow chestnut -- for people who strongly prefer it.

At the end of 2014 -- I did a lot of research into color -- and became convinced that the ultrapale look wouldn't be the only choice for legbar -- LOL

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ection-for-alternative-legbars-sop-discussion

At the beginning I was under the impression that only the Legbars that looked like the preferred one UK example would be Legbars -- and there was a lot of influence in that direction -- however after a lot of research by the end of the thread...... I saw a different view. the ones that are colorful are Cream Legbars imo - and that I guess could be considered problematic by some who want the ones that a lot of us like to become a different variety -- although the females are not different....

-- there is a magazine in UK called Fancy Fowl Magazine and Grant Brereton is the editor. He actually traveled to the USA early in 2014 to teach a poultry plumage genetics seminar in Morganton NC. -- Among his many books, ebooks etc is one called 'Breeding for Success'. He really has a lot of expertise in Poultry genetics. Long ago a picture was unearthed that came from an issue of Fancy Fowl magazine in the 1980's sometime when Applegarth 'saved' the CL -- and I sent the pict to Grant. (I had met him by attending the seminar. If you ever get a chance to read any articles by him, books or e-books by him or he comes back to the USA for another seminar -- I would say read what you can, go if you can (there are tons of articles available on the internet by him and they are all clear and informative ! -- )
Here is the pict:

I had wanted to get the magazine to give us permission to use it on the CL club's website - back in the days when I was the person who did the care and feeding of the website --

Here is a part of the email that I got back from him:
"Personally, I wouldn't want the males any lighter than the one shown. I don't see the point in males
that are too washed out and virtually indistinguishable from Silver Legbars.

I suppose they are not supposed to be as dark as the Welbar males, but they should have some
colour, in my opinion."

So those of us who prefer the color -- are not alone. Grant Brereton is a Class A Poultry judge in UK among his other accomplishments. Besides a chestnut wing patch -- the male actually has a bit of gold on his wing-triangle -- He also has the slightly darker saddle feathers. -- Ever since that time -- It seems increasingly that the ultra-pale CL isn't the only choice for the breed.
However -- those of us who feel that this is a superior look -- are probably out-voiced by the others..... I'm of the opinion that it doesn't do the breed a favor to have it be as Grant said "virtually indistinguishable from Silver Legbars" What would be the point? Sorry for the dissent. I have resolved to allow the pale look go forward without my opposition...LOL And as you k now that the manifestation that some think and have said looks a bit like an inferior barred bird -- others think is beautiful as is.

It is really counterproductive at this point to put forward the ones that we think are more according to the Punnett style let's say. Punnett stated that :
It is a brown leghorn on a cream basis to which the barring gene has been added for autosexing and it lays a blue egg. -- I think that was in 1957 or so -- I have trouble seeing anything that resembles a brown leghorn with the barring factor in the UK's ideal....but that's probably just me. I think the bird has changed away from Punnett's vision - so Jerryse - good insights.


But for the few like myself who prefer the 'more colorful' -- we do have some insightful people who see it the same way. ;O) In a year or two I may be back with some project results that will be of interest to those who prefer the color and pattern of the 'more colorful' Legbar. ;O)

 

[mellcrowl]

I got this bird photo off the British breed club site awhile ago where he is used as the ideal British Cream Legbar color for a Rooster. I see the duckwing coloring (at least on a couple feathers) but he has zero chestnut anywhere (which I personally like this bird I don't like the chestnut patches on the chest/body) This is not correct per the US SOP??

I am personally a fan of this bird. I really like how clean he is, but I also don't like a lot of copper wash in my roosters. Part of this is because I like the lighter hens they produce to the darker ones. But to each their own.

 

[rottlady]

thank you all for the thought out and informative posts.

 

[jerryse]

On barring . To get crisp barring like Barred Rocks you have to have the slow feathering gene . The slower the feather grows the crisper the barring . Barring interrupts the color . So cuckoo is barring on a faster growing feather . Sort of like a blurry photo because the camera was not steady or moved a bit . So to get crisp barring you have to select away from the Leghorn type fast feathering . More like the Barred Rock slow feathering . Those genes are likely still mixing in the current Legbar stock . I myself I prefer the Leghorn type . The days of dual purpose fowl are past . Dual purpose lose egg production to gain a meatier bird . In poultry now the meat birds are single purpose really . Same for eggs . Many backyard keepers will not process their own cockerels .

 

[rottlady]

interesting! My roo a couple pages back was fast feathering, as fast as a pullet and his barring is a little blurry. NOW if my Delaware chick was a barred bird he/she would have great barring LOL He/she is 3 weeks old and barely wing feathers and all the other Dels have lots of feathers

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

On barring . To get crisp barring like Barred Rocks you have to have the slow feathering gene . The slower the feather grows the crisper the barring . Barring interrupts the color . So cuckoo is barring on a faster growing feather . Sort of like a blurry photo because the camera was not steady or moved a bit . So to get crisp barring you have to select away from the Leghorn type fast feathering . More like the Barred Rock slow feathering . Those genes are likely still mixing in the current Legbar stock . I myself I prefer the Leghorn type . The days of dual purpose fowl are past . Dual purpose lose egg production to gain a meatier bird . In poultry now the meat birds are single purpose really . Same for eggs . Many backyard keepers will not process their own cockerels .

Naw, Naked Necks are awesome dual purpose chickens. Great layers, great for the table.

Just sayin'.

(I'm totally crossing them with CLs one day - everything's better with a naked neck!!!!

)

- Ant Farm



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