Creating the MF Pattern

[cochinman2005]

Hi Lynne,
Glad that you are enjoying some success in breeding these. Looks like you are making some good progress as well. Interesting to see the variations in color, even from the same breeding. If you have hatched 100 then you are on the right track as that is how you'll make the best progress. LArge numbers give you a wider base from which to choose and greater possibility to get the one or two birds that are the key to getting the pattern right. The bird in the photo looks much improved in the type department. Nice to see some good progress on the pattern and type from multiple breeders.

I read the posts on here all the time, just hadn't posted anything myself until now. I need to post my Lavender Cochin project. I have a few photos for that. Maybe tonight.

Tom

 

[Krys109uk]

Tom, your birds are fascinating. Thank you.
I'm doing quite a bit with mottling at present.
So the birds in the photos with extreme mottling still have juvenile plumage? I hadn't taken that into consideration. I get some which are very white while juveniles.

Do you have any pics of the same birds with their adult plumage if they have it yet?

I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions.

The second pic female's who would have 'passed as a columbian', are you referring to silver columbian?

Can you remember the colour of the chick down of the F1s?


What relation is the buff columbian female, in the third pic, to the F1s?

 

[cochinman2005]

Yes, younger birds in the bottom photos are only 6 - 8 weeks old. I'll add more photos as they progress.

The sibling to the female in the second photo would have passed as silver columbian, although a bit light in hackle markings. I did not keep her as she showed no mottling whatsover and thought I'd be going in the wrong direction if I did use her for breeding.

F1 chick down was very dark. I believe they may have been Buff with very dark gray backs. I know that the silver columbian pullet was yellow as a chick. The f2 chicks (bottom photos) varied. I got Buff Columbian/Mille Fleur looking down color, Black, and yellow.

Bird in third photo is not related to f1's. However I did breed the male in the top photo to her. I'd have to check wing bands to be able to tell you which f2 chicks in the bottom photos were out of the mating.

Thought process here was that while that female in the third photo is out of a Buff Columbian breeding, she is showing some Mille Fleur-like feathers, although the white is really just Silver Columbian showing through.

 

[La Unica Farms]

Hi Lynne,

I saw your post and wanted to share a few pictures of the chicks that I got from you.
On the previous page I posted that I feel pretty sure that I have three Roos and two hens from the MF chicks that I got from you. I have a few extra bantam hens that I can put with the extra MF Roo but I am not sure which hens would give me the best results. I have
1 Black Hen

1 Mottled Hen

1 Buff Hen ( looks identical to this Roo )

and 3 Partridge Hens

Here are some pictures of my MF chicks. These were the best pictures I could get as a serious storm just blew in and forced me to run for cover.

Are they maturing the way you had expected? The mostly red hen is my favorite ( I know, I shouldn't have favorites ) but her coloring is just amazing. I call her Charlotte. I don't know how she will finish out but I can't wait to find out.

 

[Krys109uk]

Hello Tom,

I look forward to seeing your birds as they progress.

It is a tad unfortunate your original mottled was carrying silver & other genes.

I did not keep her as she showed no mottling whatsover and thought I'd be going in the wrong direction if I did use her for breeding.

I'd agree that you wouldn't ideally choose a silver female to use, but was the a reason for expecting mottling to show in the F1s? Leakage does sometimes occur in birds 'split' for mottling it is not always the case.

that female in the third photo is out of a Buff Columbian breeding, she is showing some Mille Fleur-like feathers, although the white is really just Silver Columbian showing through.

Do you know her history? She looks like a nice choice. It looks as if she is carrying mottling. Her offspring would not be mottled if she didn't carry at least one mottling gene. Also it would be pretty unlikely for her to be silver with that ground colour. Silver & gold are sex linked traits thus females can only be silver or gold but not both. It is possible, though unlikely, for a silver bird to appear goldish or yellowish due to autosomal reddening genes.​

 

[cochinman2005]

RE: the Buff Columbian female.

I get one or two of these every year from the Buff Columbian breeding. This year though only a single cockerel. When I started with the Buff Columbians I did not have a BC Male to work with so used a Buff Male across two Buff Columbian females. f1 from this mating showed very little hackle and saddle markings, so I crossed the best ckl from the f1 group to a silver columbian to get the pattern back. All ckls were discarded but the best pullets (all Buff Columbian) were kept for the next breeding season. the past 2 seasons I got a ckl and pullet or two showing the pattern which you see in that female. I kept a male from last year as well and will take a picture of him when I get a chance.

The fact that I crossed in a silver Columbian may have something to do with the way the f1's looked from the original Mottled X Buff Columbian female. While she didn't show any white in her plumage, she was at least carrying Silver Columbian genetically to some degree.

 

[Msbear]

Quote:
Hey Tom, Erin here. There is another post on the "mille enthusiast" thread where someone mentions the silver columbian gene being a potential problem... Im wondering if that has something to do with these dark ckls that we've been hatching from Lynne's F2's It seems to be sex-linked as the pullets are not showing this. About 30% of the cockerels hatched out dark and stay dark but develop buff mottling on the chest. ...could also be from the roo she started with that had a lot of black on him. The F3's are showing much improvement already as now we are hatching less dark, some chipmunk but mostly wheaten downed chicks.

La Unica, you can put your buff and mottled in with you MF roo. That partridge pullet looks like she could go in there as well. I've heard someone else use them but am unsure of the outcome.

 

[La Unica Farms]

Thanks MsBear!

I had a feeling that was going to be my best bet but I wasn't sure.
I am interested in all of the talk regarding Buff Columbians. Is that a color I should consider investing in or should I stay clear of it. This is just a hobby for me but if I am going to be producing chicks, I want them to be the highest quality they can be. I realize that MF is still a work in progress but I want to learn from what others have been doing, what worked and what didn't. I don't see any reason to repeat mistakes that others have already learned from.

 

[Msbear]

Quote:
Buff columbians are pretty hard to come by. I would think that would be your best bet if breeding from a single MF roo but you look like you have a few youngsters coming up... You know it's hard to say what your "best" option would be. It seems the ingredient list to mille fleur is pretty expansive and just adding a bit of this and that til you get on the right track is key. Im crossing mine with mottled in an attempt to get some more cushion. Im a little worried about how the black will effect the mille color Lynne has taken so much time to get. So, Im swapping roos. ...doing some line breeding and some outcrossing so that I don't put all my eggs in one basket.

 

[Krys109uk]

so I crossed the best ckl from the f1 group to a silver columbian to get the pattern back. All ckls were discarded but the best pullets (all Buff Columbian) were kept for the next breeding season.

Using a buff columbian X buff male over silver columbian females would give sex linked offspring. All of the pullet offspring would be gold & not carrying any silver. They can't carry silver; silver & gold are on the Z sex chromosome. Females only have one Z chromosome which they have inherited from their father & as, in his case, their father didn't have any silver genes (being a buff), then his pullet offspring couldn't inherit one. The male offspring, however would have inherited one gold gene on the Z chromosome from their father & one silver gene on their Z chromosome from their mother.

The fact that I crossed in a silver Columbian may have something to do with the way the f1's looked from the original Mottled X Buff Columbian female. While she didn't show any white in her plumage, she was at least carrying Silver Columbian genetically to some degree.

If you discarded all the males from the silver/gold cross then you will have discarded the all of the birds carrying silver.

Had the mottled male had the genotype I've encountered for mottling i.e. extended black, all of the offspring from a cross between those & silver or buff columbian would have hatched as blacks, nothing else. The mottling, proper & nonblack colours would not have shown properly until the next generation. So the mottled male couldn't have been extended black.
The female F1s are silver (& other genes); ergo the father has to carry silver (as well as his other genes).

As mottling is a recessive gene (though it does sometimes leak) it would not be possible to get proper mottled offspring unless the both parents were each carrying at least one gene for mottling. Ergo the buff columbian female from pic 3 must carry mottling.

When you say 'buff columbian/mille fleur looking down' please can you elaborate? I have seen many different types of chick down on the mille fleur chicks in pictures.​