CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[fowlman01]

That is true. there were both rosecomb and single comb in dorking and many breeds orpingtons too ....today you see mainly single combs ....Im not going to show the pictures from the old books because I just want to enjoy seeing the dorkings not start something..

I wonder how many different breeds were founded out of dorking..I had often wondered if they played any part at all in the RIR past just by the shape? or was that just selective over time by breeders of RIR ... because of the 5th toe maybe they wernt used a lot by breeders....they were one of the foundation breeds in the white orpington and to this day you can see little things in the white orp from them..occasionally a little yellow in the leg or on beak from the old dorkings a hint of that shape.but most of that was worked out to orp breeders satisfaction.....it took the white orp creator 5 yrs to work out the 5th toe..that is why the white looks just a little different than blk and buff due to that dorking ....the vass buff orp may have been based in dorking too but blk orp was not.

I don't think there was Dorking used in RIR's, but it was used in other breeds. The Houdan comes to mind. The SOP usually tells what they used to create most breeds.

Walt

 

[Yellow House Farm]

That is true. there were both rosecomb and single comb in dorking and many breeds orpingtons too ....today you see mainly single combs ....Im not going to show the pictures from the old books because I just want to enjoy seeing the dorkings not start something..

I wonder how many different breeds were founded out of dorking..I had often wondered if they played any part at all in the RIR past just by the shape? or was that just selective over time by breeders of RIR ... because of the 5th toe maybe they wernt used a lot by breeders....they were one of the foundation breeds in the white orpington and to this day you can see little things in the white orp from them..occasionally a little yellow in the leg or on beak from the old dorkings a hint of that shape.but most of that was worked out to orp breeders satisfaction.....it took the white orp creator 5 yrs to work out the 5th toe..that is why the white looks just a little different than blk and buff due to that dorking ....the vass buff orp may have been based in dorking too but blk orp was not.

Five years sounds about right: not that I'm so much clear on the White Orp history, but I'm pretty familiar with the 5-toe.


Dorkings are thought to have played a role in the RIRs. RIRs are the only breed that was developed over time really on an out-crossing basis. They bred all sorts of hens but always used the red cocks that were currently being imported from the Orient. Brown Leghorns, however, played and even more prominent role, but this opens up another conversation.

John Henry Robinson makes a particular point of pointing out the British inclination for breeding for meat: the Cornish is the Game type bred for meat; the Redcap is the Hamburg type bred for meat; and the Dorking is the Mediterranean-type bred for meat. This latter point is fairly clear to me. Our Anconas and our Dorkings are, in the hand, the same bird, meaning the fundamental body is the same, but the bifurcation is in the purpose. The Dorkings take the body and flesh it out and fatten; the Anconas carry the leanness of the layer. However, if you look at your Standard, you'll see that, from top of head to tip of tail, in the neck-back-tail line they are opposite. The Leghorn being a bird of rounded curves while the Dorking is one of clear angles.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I don't think there was Dorking used in RIR's, but it was used in other breeds. The Houdan comes to mind. The SOP usually tells what they used to create most breeds.

Walt

To clarify my statement, in reading the history of the development of the Dorking, several author admitted to the possibility that Dorkings were part of the mix, but, at any rate, they were not a heavy contributor in the way that the Brown Leghorn, for example, was.


It's also interesting to note that the Dorking is recognized by the early writers as the ideal in meat development, and that the boon of the Plymouth Rock is that it, among the modern composite breeds, comes closest to the Dorking in type.

 

[1MrsMagoo]

I have a small flock of Red Dorkings out of Dick Horstman's lines. Great birds, but very skiddish and hard to get decent photos of them.

All the birds have the fifth toe, short legs, broad bodies and turned one year old this week: I have three males and one female. All the males have decent to very nice coloration, although all three have faults.

This one has too much white on his ear lobes and not enough black on his lower thighs to start. His comb isn't too bad, but his hackle feathers lighten toward the bottom and also have some striping in that area that can be seen if the photo is enlarged. Also, his tail is the most open of the three males.



This one also has the lightened tips on his hackle feathers, faded out comb and wattles (has always been this color despite regular worming), and a bit of low wing carriage.



This one has the worst spacing on the serrations of his comb. The flash washed it out, but he has decent comb and wattle color and decent ear lobes. He has some black on the lower thigh, but his tail is not open enough for my taste. Actually only one has a nice open tail on him out of the three.



My lone hen. Her comb has always been very washed out color-wise. Her head is too dark and she is missing some of the yellow shafting on her back feathers. Her tail is very pinched shut as well.




This is a photo for a couple months ago of them on a perch so you can see their chest feathering. The female is described in the standard as Salmon, which I would not call her chest.




I am new to evaluating these birds and invite all the help and advice I can get. What did I miss? All the males have the white fluff around the base of their tails that comes and goes throughout the year. Is this a serious issue with these birds? I will be getting more of these as I really like them, so having a clear picture of what I am shooting for as far as breeding is essential. Thanks everyone.

 

[kimberly35042]

yes, but look at that TYPE on those first two cocks -- WOWZA!! SO NICE! That's what I'm talkin about!

 

[fowlman01]

To clarify my statement, in reading the history of the development of the Dorking, several author admitted to the possibility that Dorkings were part of the mix, but, at any rate, they were not a heavy contributor in the way that the Brown Leghorn, for example, was.


It's also interesting to note that the Dorking is recognized by the early writers as the ideal in meat development, and that the boon of the Plymouth Rock is that it, among the modern composite breeds, comes closest to the Dorking in type.

I haven't heard that before. The SOP does not mention it in the RIR intro, but I wasn't there when they put the RIR together.

The leg description in the SOP is the same for the female and the male. (short-stout). I understand the reference to the creeper and the breeding, but the Dorkings I had back in the day had pretty short legs and didn't seem to have a problem breeding.

An interesting thing I ran into here on BYC....."beekissed" who is not a show person but is a person well versed in poultry management saw a picture of a Dorking and thought it was an unthrifty cull because of the Dorking body form. It is quite unusual when a person really studies it.

Walt

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I haven't heard that before. The SOP does not mention it in the RIR intro, but I wasn't there when they put the RIR together. I ended up doing a lot of research into it for a presentation I was preparing a while back. It would appear that the RIR was really built over a long period of time, taking the hens generally available at the time in the area around northern RI and southern Mass and breeding them with the various red cocks that were being imported from the Orient. The important factor was that the cock be red, for it was believed that they possessed, and probably did, high levels of vigor and hardiness. Most of what I read made it sound that the hens used were more or less a motley crew, although certain breeds were more stand out. I remember at least one author mentioning Dorking hens, but it was not in a significant manner.

The leg description in the SOP is the same for the female and the male. (short-stout). I understand the reference to the creeper and the breeding, but the Dorkings I had back in the day had pretty short legs and didn't seem to have a problem breeding. My confused writing, look at the "body and fluff" segments of the two. For the female the term "low-set" is used but is absent from the males. Certainly they're short. When I juxtapose an Ancona cock to a Dorking cock, the difference is marked. I think that the most important factor to avoid breeding issues is in the back that declines to the tail. I think that it sets the balance of the bird and compensated for the short shanks at prominent breast.

An interesting thing I ran into here on BYC....."beekissed" who is not a show person but is a person well versed in poultry management saw a picture of a Dorking and thought it was an unthrifty cull because of the Dorking body form. It is quite unusual when a person really studies it. Hmm...I'll have to think about that. I've been staring at them so long I'm used to it, but I can see how the shortness defies expectation.

Walt

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: Regarding the hen in the bottom picture: If this color is supposed to be the Black-Breasted Red cock with the stippled, salmon-breasted hen ( e+/e+ s+/s+ (-) ... I looked in Van Dort and Hancox's, book, "Colour Genetics", and found out this is called a Red Duckwing. It's genotype is e+/e+ s+/s+ (-) Mh/Mh. I have seen this color in the hen before in Golden Salmon Marans I was trying to breed (which are also e+/e+ s+/s+ (-) ). Extremely frustrating. I researched it for a while trying to figure out what was turning the salmon breast with a reddish shade. It's either Mahogany or autosomal red. Whatever it is, is really "sticky", in a genetic sense. Personally I vote for Mahogany. . I think you have to have one parent free of it to get rid of it. I don't know of a way to figure out if the sire is free from the gene causing this because the male is so dark all over. ( looking at the pics of e+/e+ s+ s+ and Red Ducking males in Van Dort's book, it seems the Red Duckwing male has more orange in the wing triangle and hackle where the e+/e+ s+/s+ is a plain flat cinnamon wing triangle; and the hackle and saddle have less brilliance in the reddish orange. Basically it seems to be a difference of brilliance in the hue.
Best,
Karen

 

[1MrsMagoo]

Regarding the hen in the bottom picture: If this color is supposed to be the Black-Breasted Red cock with the stippled, salmon-breasted hen ( e+/e+ s+/s+ (-) ... I looked in Van Dort and Hancox's, book, "Colour Genetics", and found out this is called a Red Duckwing. It's genotype is e+/e+ s+/s+ (-) Mh/Mh. I have seen this color in the hen before in Golden Salmon Marans I was trying to breed (which are also e+/e+ s+/s+ (-) ). Extremely frustrating. I researched it for a while trying to figure out what was turning the salmon breast with a reddish shade. It's either Mahogany or autosomal red. Whatever it is, is really "sticky", in a genetic sense. Personally I vote for Mahogany. . I think you have to have one parent free of it to get rid of it. I don't know of a way to figure out if the sire is free from the gene causing this because the male is so dark all over. ( looking at the pics of e+/e+ s+ s+ and Red Ducking males in Van Dort's book, it seems the Red Duckwing male has more orange in the wing triangle and hackle where the e+/e+ s+/s+ is a plain flat cinnamon wing triangle; and the hackle and saddle have less brilliance in the reddish orange. Basically it seems to be a difference of brilliance in the hue.
Best,
Karen

Very informative: Thank you very much. I think I very much need to invest in the book you referenced above! I guess the best way to figure out if the sires are free of it would be get a couple of correctly colored hens and individually mate them with each male to see what I get.
I wish I had more hens from Mr. Horstman's line to see if this runs in his reds. I am getting some from Rudy Troxel this fall and will keep them in separate breeding pens. Perhaps he will have better coloration in his females.

 

[kimberly35042]

Is this a more "correct" color salmon?