CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

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When newbies start playing with all these crazy colors you can watch the breed become polluted and wither away. I see this happen all the time now. The "breeders"..lol....wonder why their breed has all these problems and all these screwy throwback colors that come popping out.

The cuckoo Dorking should never have been recognized by the APA. Out of the 50+ birds there at the qualifying meet only two would have passed if it had been up to me. Both were pullets. You don't see any cuckoo Dorkings now. While I understand that mixing colors is fun for some folks, it does serious damage to the breed, because these "project" birds get out into the general population...and as I state all the time.......you can't tell that they are scrambled genetically as they look correct.

Joe.......It is good to see someone else who understands that just because it is old does not mean it is true. I too enjoy the old writings, and many of them are right on....but not all of them.

Walt

I know that the more I learn of breeding the less I'm put on by color, while at the same point, the more I respect good color. It's the realization that all of these fluke colors can be had in any given season by simply crossing the principle varieties, but if the structure isn't there, who cares? Who cares if they're not good Dorkings? Then again to specialize in a color is hard. Mottling is hard. I was just with Brian Knox going over Silver Laced Wyandotte bantams....now that was hard, I mean really intimidating.

Regarding the Cuckoo Dorkings, I can only imagine. Moreover, while these breeders were focusing on the cuckoos, they were allowing the principle colors to slip further down the drain. We might get to the point where Dorkings are so strong that we can think about creating quality cuckoos, but that won't be for a long time. Even then, in large fowl I can only think of a scant number of breeds that can maintain more than three varieties over time in any sort of quality. I doubt the Dorkings will even have more than three varieties of quality, and it will be in White, Red, and Silver Greys. Cuckoos in large fowl are a dead end. No one likes cuckoo because all it is imperfect barring. The only breed that can sustain cuckoo is the Dominique, and that's only because it has so much lore behind it; all other breeds with a cuckoo variety don't have any worth seeing, at least whenever I've seen them. They just look dirty. Moreover, the Colored variety isn't stable. To breed it well, were good stock actually existing, would be tough enough because it is a pattern that creates so many culls, but insofar as there aren't any Colored Dorkings of any real quality existing, well, that's a multiple hundred chick a year variety over an untold number of years.

I think the single most poignant way to galvanize this understanding is to attend lots of shows throughout the year: White and Barred Rocks, White and Light Brown Leghorns, White Wyandottes, RIR, certain Cochins, sometimes NH, sometimes SC Black Minorcas, sometimes Black Langshans, sometimes Faverolles, on occasion SS Hamburgs. When I see these breeds in these specific varieties, it's like getting chicken religion because they show the way and the fruit of extreme focus. Every time I stare at them, I come back with more resolve. They remind me that it is actually possible to breed absolutely outstanding birds, but that there actually is a right way and a wrong way, in the sense that there's actually a way to get that uniformity, to get that width of feather, to get that structural validity, but I recognize that it's not going to happen by reinventing the rules or by hatching 20 chicks a year without records and intentional matings.

All of these crazy colors are like genetic pollution, and many on ebay and other sites are selling them. Sand Hill unfortunately is offering a panoply of silliness; Feathersite promotes fake varieties with names pulled out of a cereal box. There is a core of folks currently getting into Dorkings that seem to have focus put into practice. As long as folk get their stock from these strong sources and don't mix them all up. They'll get there.
 
Aveca said: "... the males in the bird world are your color producers, your females make the shapes..in the wild the most colorful males will most often win and pass on better color to offspring.."

I have heard this time and again when reading the writings of the old poultry men. Yet modern genetics geniuses say it's complete nonsense. How can it be nonsense if the best breeders of the times believe it? I mean that ones that actually breed chickens and successfully? Science is a wonderful thing but sometimes we have to step back and admit that because a formula or something "proves" a thing to be true, it might still not be accurate.

perhaps that is why some of ours fell into a state of disrepair? ..not sure sarah..I think he was trying to give me a simple thought to work with instead of a mess of different ideas which I was very confused about..I felt like I was running in circles and getting stuck...It did help me see things more clearly.using the birds of paradise as an example put the whole thing in perspective...Ive only tried this once..and the results were pretty stunning the 3 birds that were more like the father out of the 17 kind of proved that something was right about it at least so far..time will tell..., nothing is fool proof..but the average was much more than I thought or expected..even ray connor said look for weaknesses in your roosters, correct them with females that are strong in that area..Interesting, he is 17 time, well 18 time sydney royal winner as of this year..so there must be somethin to it..it really clicked when he used the birds of paradise as the raw example or for me the novice example..they are doing something right ..the other thing was the combs were not as predictable as the body type in this..got a range of different results on that but the body type part was pretty interesting.. I walked away from it with your rooster must be good, especially in color, your hen must be better body..i felt like I could take a step forward instead of in a circle..you read a lot about color issues and complex remedies and hiding genes ect..he just said. you dont need to worry about that right now..you want to get this part in your mind..
 
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perhaps that is why some of ours fell into a state of disrepair? ..not sure sarah..I think he was trying to give me a simple thought to work with instead of a mess of different ideas which I was very confused about..I felt like I was running in circles and getting stuck...It did help me see things more clearly.using the birds of paradise as an example put the whole thing in perspective...Ive only tried this once..and the results were pretty stunning the 3 birds that were more like the father out of the 17 kind of proved that something was right about it at least so far..time will tell..., nothing is fool proof..but the average was much more than I thought or expected..even ray connor said look for weaknesses in your roosters, correct them with females that are strong in that area..Interesting, he is 17 time, well 18 time sydney royal winner as of this year..so there must be somethin to it..it really clicked when he used the birds of paradise as the raw example or for me the novice example..they are doing something right ..the other thing was the combs were not as predictable as the body type in this..got a range of different results on that but the body type part was pretty interesting.. I walked away from it with your rooster must be good, especially in color, your hen must be better body..i felt like I could take a step forward instead of in a circle..


I have hatched a few mutts from varying breeds. And in each case, the chicks ended up with the mom's body type. Maybe not always her size, but her body type. I realize I've only seen a few from mixed matings but it's really striking how in each and every case, the chick ended up with mom's profile, be it male or female. So your results don't surprise me. I guess being new to this all makes what I say have little weight, but in this case I'm absolutely convinced based on evidence.
 
Aveca, could you elaborate on your "birds of paradise example" or point me to the thread where this is discussed?

I was just rereading some of YHF posts from 2011 on the dorking thread where he advised growing out cockerals and pullets separate. You never know the wisdom of those words until you don't. I'm not to the point of running in circles yet, but am to the point where husbandry can get sticky. I have a large fenced yard and free range the birds during the day. In my naivity, I thought that would make a difference. I guess you could get away with it if you culled to one or two cockerals at this point, but with the slow growing dorking, that just won't cut it. And especially if you plan to have several breeding pens as a starting point. 50 chicks doesn't seem like many when they hatch, but at about 8 weeks, well, that's a bunch of chickens and that would be in addition to your adults. Time to take up building projects again.
hmm.png
 
Aveca, could you elaborate on your "birds of paradise example" or point me to the thread where this is discussed? I was just rereading some of YHF posts from 2011 on the dorking thread where he advised growing out cockerals and pullets separate. You never know the wisdom of those words until you don't. I'm not to the point of running in circles yet, but am to the point where husbandry can get sticky. I have a large fenced yard and free range the birds during the day. In my naivity, I thought that would make a difference. I guess you could get away with it if you culled to one or two cockerals at this point, but with the slow growing dorking, that just won't cut it. And especially if you plan to have several breeding pens as a starting point. 50 chicks doesn't seem like many when they hatch, but at about 8 weeks, well, that's a bunch of chickens and that would be in addition to your adults. Time to take up building projects again.
hmm.png
A lot of wisdom there. I've found that so long as they have plenty of places to hide from each other and you keep the numbers down, they'll do ok. But in my case that means less than a dozen in a 125' x 200' area. And oh sometimes it is so hard for me to cut that number down after hatching some. Not that I can't find buyers, that's easy. It's just that I don't want to sell any. lol
 
Add some geese (15 or so) in that mix, chickens that hop fences to roam 10 acres and you'd like to pull your hair out sometimes. But then everybody comes back to eat and roost and all hell breaks loose. Its 100 degrees and hormones are raging and heat strokes are eminent. Hatchet anybody? My mom has been wanting some chicken salad. Oh wait, you use cochin for that *lol*
 
perhaps that is why some of ours fell into a state of disrepair? ..not sure sarah..I think he was trying to give me a simple thought to work with instead of a mess of different ideas which I was very confused about..I felt like I was running in circles and getting stuck...It did help me see things more clearly.using the birds of paradise as an example put the whole thing in perspective...Ive only tried this once..and the results were pretty stunning the 3 birds that were more like the father out of the 17 kind of proved that something was right about it at least so far..time will tell..., nothing is fool proof..but the average was much more than I thought or expected..even ray connor said look for weaknesses in your roosters, correct them with females that are strong in that area..Interesting, he is 17 time, well 18 time sydney royal winner as of this year..so there must be somethin to it..it really clicked when he used the birds of paradise as the raw example or for me the novice example..they are doing something right ..the other thing was the combs were not as predictable as the body type in this..got a range of different results on that but the body type part was pretty interesting.. I walked away from it with your rooster must be good, especially in color, your hen must be better body..i felt like I could take a step forward instead of in a circle..you read a lot about color issues and complex remedies and hiding genes ect..he just said. you dont need to worry about that right now..you want to get this part in your mind..
Only the Eclectus Parrot breaks this rule that I know of. For a long time people assumed that the males and females were 2 different species. Nope. The Male Eclectus is plain green with a light beak. The female has the color...Brilliant Scarlet with blue/ purple iridescence, and a black beak.In this species the female is the aggressive one. The Black Widow of the parrot world.
 
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Aveca, could you elaborate on your "birds of paradise example" or point me to the thread where this is discussed?

I was just rereading some of YHF posts from 2011 on the dorking thread where he advised growing out cockerals and pullets separate. You never know the wisdom of those words until you don't. I'm not to the point of running in circles yet, but am to the point where husbandry can get sticky. I have a large fenced yard and free range the birds during the day. In my naivity, I thought that would make a difference. I guess you could get away with it if you culled to one or two cockerals at this point, but with the slow growing dorking, that just won't cut it. And especially if you plan to have several breeding pens as a starting point. 50 chicks doesn't seem like many when they hatch, but at about 8 weeks, well, that's a bunch of chickens and that would be in addition to your adults. Time to take up building projects again.
hmm.png

A 10x10 night space with a covered run say10'x16' or so, this is all that's needed. You can then let them free-range on opposite days. But raising pullets and cockerels together leads to multiple, specific problems all of which undermine your efforts.
 
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A 10x10 night space with a covered run say10'x16' or so, this is all that's needed. You can then let them free-range on opposite days. But raising pullets and cockerels together leads to multiple, specific problems all of which undermine your efforts.
Could you expand on the problems with raising cockerals and pullets together and at which age do you separate them?
 
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