CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[Robert Blosl]

http://bloslspoutlryfarm.tripod.com/id52.html

Got a message from this web site asking me for the article I put in our Plymouth Rock Quarterly years ago on how to breed barred rock color pattern. I would love for you to read it and com pair this method along with Doms.

Great pictures and glad that these old birds are in good hands. bob

 

[Chris09]

I have a quick question for the ones that are breeding the lighter color Dominique.
How long do you think it will take until you start getting White Sports in your offspring?
Before you say it isn't possible think about this, back in the 70's Robert Henderson crossed to White Game Hens to reinvigorate his line and I have a funny feeling that Henry Miller, Edward Uber and Carl Gallaher may have done much the same.


Chris

 

[buffalogal]

I have a quick question for the ones that are breeding the lighter color Dominique.
How long do you think it will take until you start getting White Sports in your offspring?
Before you say it isn't possible think about this, back in the 70's Robert Henderson crossed to White Game Hens to reinvigorate his line and I have a funny feeling that Henry Miller, Edward Uber and Carl Gallaher may have done much the same.


Chris

Chris, white sports in Dominiques predate Henderson's single use of a white game hen. That's because a sport doesn't have to be the result of an outcross, and it's not like a dimmer switch on a light, with the birds getting paler and lighter until you can't see the barring anymore until voila'! A white Dominique. The very pale Dominique cockerel that was posted on this thread isn't going to produce white birds, though it may produce some very pale, washed out looking ones.

Instead, a sport is produced from normal colored parents where the gene for color has been turned off in that bird like a simple toggle switch.

 

[buffalogal]

Sure, let's look at those original, real live birds:

The thing I notice is that besides being nicely matched in shade, they are Jedi Dominiques; that is to say medium to light, not leaning toward the dark side.

 

[Delight in Dominiques]

Great disscusion, very valid points by both. Have to run the dogs. Good info to think about before getting back. Thanks, John

 

[Chris09]

Chris, white sports in Dominiques predate Henderson's single use of a white game hen. That's because a sport doesn't have to be the result of an outcross, and it's not like a dimmer switch on a light, with the birds getting paler and lighter until you can't see the barring anymore until voila'! A white Dominique. The very pale Dominique cockerel that was posted on this thread isn't going to produce white birds, though it may produce some very pale, washed out looking ones.

Instead, a sport is produced from normal colored parents where the gene for color has been turned off in that bird like a simple toggle switch.

Quote: True a Sport doesn't have to be the result of a out-cross but it does help. Now a Barred breed can be bred to become White and has been done note that some of the first White Plymouth Rocks were a Sport of the Barred Rock. Now if you look into the Dom/ Dominique Game fowl they can and will come Barred, Crele, and White. (Kentucky Dom's were known for coming White)



Quote: If the color is turn off on a Barred breed it is then White..
If the Barring gene is turned off then the bird would be Self Black, note the post I made sometime back on this thread.


Quote: If the Barring Gene "permanently on" the the bird is also White if the bird has White anywhere in it's background it is possibly to breed that White back out and get a Self White bird.

Chris

 

[Chris09]

Sure, let's look at those original, real live birds:

The thing I notice is that besides being nicely matched in shade, they are Jedi Dominiques; that is to say medium to light, not leaning toward the dark side.

Those are the "touched-up" photos that Franklane did before Schilling.

Here's the real 1913 photos of A.Q. Carters birds, there is a big difference. (The exposure on the camera is really off but does show there shape)

Chris

 

[WallTenters]

I have a quick question for the ones that are breeding the lighter color Dominique.
How long do you think it will take until you start getting White Sports in your offspring?
Before you say it isn't possible think about this, back in the 70's Robert Henderson crossed to White Game Hens to reinvigorate his line and I have a funny feeling that Henry Miller, Edward Uber and Carl Gallaher may have done much the same.


Chris

Fun discussion

Chris I also do not like really light males either. In fact I would prefer a male slightly darker than what most breeders would I think - but that's just my personal preference. I wonder why in the bantams we do not have an issue with the males having such a washed out tail in the old cock birds. I think in our large fowl we need to all keep in mind that even though the male pictured for the old standard was a cockerel from what I have been taught that is what an adult - full grown - male should look like, not one who is still going through color changes into his almost 2yr mark and even after that point. So it is so hard to have a nicely colored cockerel to show who would keep his good markings into his 2nd or 3rd year, but since the birds show better as a younger bird having that bloom most breeders going to shows would rather take a nicely colored cockerel, even knowing he may bleach out a bit too much in a few year's time, than to try to make an old cock bird look peppy and get the attention of the judges and fellow breeders.

edited to add: I don't like the uber bleached out males, but I don't think they are responsible for white sports, I think that's usually unrelated

You mentioned something about color not being worth enough points to make or break a placing I agree not too much emphasis should be put on color, but as I was saying if "all other things being equal" I don't know too many breeders or judges who would pick the darker male as being ideal.

As far as having their place in the breeding pen I'm not so sure, I think a lighter male could be used and produce females and males with more clarity of color, and if you were double breeding still a lighter male I think would produce better results if used in either pen.



To the gentleman posting the barred rock article thank you and yes I have read it a while back but I forget so always nice to reread!

"take a couple steps back and look at them, I want to see an even shade of what I call a "Bluish Steel Gray," Color. It doesn’t really matter to me if the color is lighter or darker than my personal prefer-ence but it has to be even from head to tail. I don’t like to see two or three different tones on one bird. Keep in mind that the females will most always look darker In color than the males because of them having wide bars than the males."

I think that is probably just what most Dominique breeders are looking for as well, that almost blue cast to the bird. And yes anything bronzy at all needs to go (before you fall in love with it for some other reason!). I have talked to a few breeders who tried to make a badly bronzed out bird work for them because he had great type but ended up having to cull the whole line after a few years of feeding up nothing but heavily bronzed but very typey males.

I also agree on having the evenness of color being important something we still need to work on as we have kept females with uneven color in the past to save their type or some other trait, so perhaps this year that will be something Rhonda (business partner - our birds are one flock in two locations) and I work with as a major culling point. If two females are pretty close to each other we will of course keep the more evenly colored female, but if a gal that is more unevenly colored is exceptional in some other way we have kept her in the past, I think at this point we would not do that this year as we have better females to choose from in general.

---

One thing we all learn quickly is that for every chicken out there there's three opinions on how to feed them and four or five on how to breed them!

 

[Chris09]

Quote: There could be some to do with the background of the fowl as in what else in in the fowl.
(are the E^R or E based do they have Dilution Gene/s)

There are a number of reasons that I like a darker bird in the breeding pen, one of them go's back to knowing that a Barred bird with out the Barring gene is Black another is that some of the best looking Barred/Cuckoo bird were bred back to Black at one time.

Chris

 

[buffalogal]

Those are the "touched-up" photos that Franklane did before Schilling.

Here's the real 1913 photos of A.Q. Carters birds, there is a big difference. (The exposure on the camera is really off but does show there shape)

Chris

Thank you Chris, that's even better; now look at that male, is he dark? No. And his consort, would anyone describe her as being dark? Why, no.

The reason Dominique fanciers still use the Schilling illustration is that it gives us an ideal bird to strive for. Those old breeders *knew* their birds had the potential to be better than even these two first place birds, that's why they had those photos 'tweaked' to reflect the perfect male and female as they imagined them, rather than simply using these photos for the standard.