CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[thedragonlady]

I'm not sure what you mean here. Poultry judges will give opinions to anyone who asks. They don't care if the person has a bird in the show or not but you have to ask. Is this how it is in the south?

Walt

Most poultry judges are very good about giving people opinions about their birds.What I'm talking about is the luck of the draw in judges at most shows. If you have a rare breed, there are very few judges who are able to give a worthwhile opinion on that breed. Yes, they have studied the SOP, but have they ever raised one ? For example...Can a Modern Game breeder really be an expert on Cochins ?The Modern breeder judge would probably go more on type and condition, maybe missing some other faults/virtues unique to Cochins.

I've heard that it boils down to entries, and secretaries not knowing what the entry will be in each breed, yet even for National meets, I've rarely seen the judge listed for that breed.Come to think of it, I've only seen a judge listed for OE Game Bantams in the South. Put a Cochin specialist on them, and the show committees know they would lose 35% of their entry, and there might be a rope involved.

 

[aveca]

I'm going to throw this out there and see what happens. I think that that roosting causes keel issues in some birds because those birds have weakness in their hock joints so that instead of having their feet under their breast while on the perch, they actually sit their keel bones on the perch, thereby removing the weight and strain from their hock joints. This practice will cause the keel to become crooked or dented or what have you. Notice that Walt mentioned, right after talking about crooked keels, the spacing of the legs, if they are too close, knock kneed, or whatever. Maybe he was saying the same thing, I don't know, this is just my opinion on the matter.
Perhaps an explanation would be the SOP? The SOP, in talking about points, doesn't talk about getting points for this or that, it talks about docking points. Some people might take this to an extreme and only look for faults in their birds.

I agree with you Lacy Blues..there was a paper published from one of the ag universities like cornell about this..im sure it wouldn't be too hard to search ...I have parts of a british judging handbook..it was sent to me by a nephew in UK..I will have to see if I can find it..there was point deduction for plymouth breast on orpington..how on earth they would know that I don't know..it was something like 2.0 or 0.2...cant remember..It would be nice to be able to see judgeing handbook but don't know if it exists in US..

 

[cpartist]

It is nice to see so much interest in the Welsummer! I have been working on mine for 4 years. Made some progress in some areas, not so much in others.

I almost gave up on them the first year, they were not productive for me at all. Perhaps this was because I hatched eggs from Northern areas and they were not adapted to my FL climate? Most of my original hens started laying just after the winter solstice, and once it got hot (which is May here), they would quit. A few went into a 4 month molt. I did have two hens that continued to lay into the summer and culled all but those two. Productivity is very good now. In the middle of July all my hens are still laying, except for one 4 year old that just quit a couple of weeks ago. One thing I like about the Wellies I have now is their good feed conversion. The are not huge birds, but once past the early pullet eggs, they lay extra large eggs on less feed.

An issue that continues to plague me are leg feather stubs. I had two original hens with stubs....one each from two different sources....and I culled them. I cull everything that hatches with the slightest bit of down on the leg, and put on my bifocals to examine all legs before they go into the breeding pen. However, although they are less frequent, the stubs keep popping up. It is really frustrating!

These are a few of my original birds. The only rooster I hatched had many issues....off color, not a full enough lower breast, and a biggie for me; white fluff showing at the base of the tail. Only positives for me were a fairly wide body and what I perceive as a nicely mottled breast and thighs. It is my understanding that the mottled breast is helpful to maintain the good color in the hens. Unlike many breeds, a light feather shaft is desired in the hens.

This fellow is long gone.

Here are a couple of original hens. Main issue with them, in my eyes, were pinched tails and too low tail angles.





I still have this last hen, now four years old. Despite her faults she has a "presence" that the camera cannot capture. My eye is drawn to her when I go into the pen.

This is the cock bird I have had for the last 3 years. I have used a few others along the way for a short time, but this guy has always thrown the best offspring. His main faults to me are a not full and rounded enough breast, not as wide as I'd like, and a too large comb. He could use some chest mottling. He is a large bird, and has good feather quality....always looks silky and shiny and the tail feathers are fairly wide. I know his bottom line is not rounded enough, not sure about his topline? I know his body into tail transition is fairly good as though he does have some gray fluff at the tail base, it mostly does not show. This is another bird that has a presence that the camera can not capture....a gleam in the eye, a vigor, a strut.... he has pretty good size and can almost carry that honking big comb.






I will say one thing about the leg color. Feed DOES make a difference. I use the FRM brand that Bob Blosl extolls the virtues of. It has animal protein and probiotics and wheat and alfalfa. It is not just corn and soy based, as are many feeds. However, I have trouble with getting good leg color on all my yellow legged breeds on it, and have talked to other people with the same issue re FRM. I got this photo from someone with a Welsummer cockerel hatched from the cock bird above.

She had been feeding Purina Start n Grow with the marigold extract. I have done some experimenting with feeding the adults garden greens and putting the chicks on Purina and get much yellower legs. The degree can vary, from light yellow to golden yellow, so I believe there is a genetic component as well. I am not to the point in my breedings where leg color is of prime importance to me, but when I do focus on this I will change feeds to be able to select the yellowest legs. I know they are genetically yellow legs and not white. I will work on the phenotype down the road.

The main focus this season was to get wider tails with a bit higher tail angle on the females. I had some success with this-




Also had a couple with too much cushion, but kept the pullet in front because of her width and nicely rounded breast-

I continue to hope to find a nicer cock bird with a fuller chest. This cockerel made it to 7 months and had a pretty good chest but was culled because he did not measure up in overall size.


My question to the judges and breeders....The SOP description calls for a deep and broad body. The illustrations, to me, do not show much depth to the body.
I have been culling this-

and keeping this (both about 6 month old pullets)-

In selecting for the fuller breast and wider tails, I am also getting deeper body depth. Am I going the wrong way with them?

 

[Bluetick340]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/content/type/61/id/5876636/width/200/height[IMG]
[IMG]https://www.backyardchickens.com/content/type/61/id/5876639/width/200/height/400

These are some late January hatched birds. Love to hear comments/ throw rocks/ you wont hurt my feelings. I want to hear them talked

 

[fowlman01]

There is no doubt that Wellies are not going to be judged as accurately as Plymouth Rocks or other Large fowl. This is why some judges are marking Wellie females down for shafting. Remember that a lot of judges were not tested on the Wellie, as it was not admitted to the SOP when they took their judging test. Anyone who had a license before 1991 was not tested on the Wellies and a lot of the judges in the South are really bantam judges. They may somehow have a large fowl license, but they don't see/judge large fowl or waterfowl all that often. This is changing somewhat.

Any breed owners of lesser known breeds should actively educate judges and anyone else that will listen. It is the only way to get a fair shake in a show. If the judge does not know the breed and is lazy, they will guess. It is human nature and for some reason some people would rather guess than look it up. Every APA/ABA judge is supposed to have their current Standard with them when they judge. Judges of poultry do not have the time to go over a class in public like the other livestock. The livestock judges are not required to judge 300-500 animals in a day. There is very little in common with showing or judging other livestock and chickens.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Does someone have a close up picture of the stippling and shafting of the females? This is very important for folks to see and understand.

Walt

 

[Happy Chooks]

Interesting on the shafting Walt.

I took this picture this morning showing the chest.

 

[Happy Chooks]

My birds were not very cooperative this morning, but I tried to get some more pictures.

Picture came out blurry, but it shows her nice tail angle. Same pullets as before, but they are 6 months old now. Ignore the hatchery BR, she's one of my original hens.


Same pullet.


This is the hen from faykokowv. Mother of the above pullet crossed to my rooster. She's been mated a bit much, she's one of the favorites.


Moose, coming up on 4 years old. He hung himself by his comb this year, that is why it flops to the side. I found him hanging from the fencing by his comb. Darn near scalped himself. Father of the cockerel I posted before.


This is one of my hens, she is 2 years old and in terrible feather quality. But she likes to break all the rules, proving that welsummers can be good sitters/mothers.


Another 6 month old pullet.

 

[fowlman01]

Interesting on the shafting Walt.

I took this picture this morning showing the chest.

The breast should be: Rich, chestnut red going well down the breast. No shafting.

Back: Reddish brown, each feather feather stippled with black and having a light, distinct shaft.

Thanks for posting this picture as it does show shafting that is too wide and that is indistinct. I don't mean to pick on this bird, but it is a good teaching opportunity as this seems to be a common fault.

Walt

 

[Happy Chooks]

Surprisingly difficult to get a good picture of it Walt, but I think this is what you want: