CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[Happy Chooks]

Quote: No worries, pick away. I'm here to learn.

Are you speaking of the chest, or back here? Anyone have a picture of the chest of a welsummer without shafting?

 

[thedragonlady]

It is nice to see so much interest in the Welsummer! I have been working on mine for 4 years. Made some progress in some areas, not so much in others.

I almost gave up on them the first year, they were not productive for me at all. Perhaps this was because I hatched eggs from Northern areas and they were not adapted to my FL climate? Most of my original hens started laying just after the winter solstice, and once it got hot (which is May here), they would quit. A few went into a 4 month molt. I did have two hens that continued to lay into the summer and culled all but those two. Productivity is very good now. In the middle of July all my hens are still laying, except for one 4 year old that just quit a couple of weeks ago. One thing I like about the Wellies I have now is their good feed conversion. The are not huge birds, but once past the early pullet eggs, they lay extra large eggs on less feed.

An issue that continues to plague me are leg feather stubs. I had two original hens with stubs....one each from two different sources....and I culled them. I cull everything that hatches with the slightest bit of down on the leg, and put on my bifocals to examine all legs before they go into the breeding pen. However, although they are less frequent, the stubs keep popping up. It is really frustrating!

These are a few of my original birds. The only rooster I hatched had many issues....off color, not a full enough lower breast, and a biggie for me; white fluff showing at the base of the tail. Only positives for me were a fairly wide body and what I perceive as a nicely mottled breast and thighs. It is my understanding that the mottled breast is helpful to maintain the good color in the hens. Unlike many breeds, a light feather shaft is desired in the hens.

This fellow is long gone.

Here are a couple of original hens. Main issue with them, in my eyes, were pinched tails and too low tail angles.





I still have this last hen, now four years old. Despite her faults she has a "presence" that the camera cannot capture. My eye is drawn to her when I go into the pen.

This is the cock bird I have had for the last 3 years. I have used a few others along the way for a short time, but this guy has always thrown the best offspring. His main faults to me are a not full and rounded enough breast, not as wide as I'd like, and a too large comb. He could use some chest mottling. He is a large bird, and has good feather quality....always looks silky and shiny and the tail feathers are fairly wide. I know his bottom line is not rounded enough, not sure about his topline? I know his body into tail transition is fairly good as though he does have some gray fluff at the tail base, it mostly does not show. This is another bird that has a presence that the camera can not capture....a gleam in the eye, a vigor, a strut.... he has pretty good size and can almost carry that honking big comb.






I will say one thing about the leg color. Feed DOES make a difference. I use the FRM brand that Bob Blosl extolls the virtues of. It has animal protein and probiotics and wheat and alfalfa. It is not just corn and soy based, as are many feeds. However, I have trouble with getting good leg color on all my yellow legged breeds on it, and have talked to other people with the same issue re FRM. I got this photo from someone with a Welsummer cockerel hatched from the cock bird above.

She had been feeding Purina Start n Grow with the marigold extract. I have done some experimenting with feeding the adults garden greens and putting the chicks on Purina and get much yellower legs. The degree can vary, from light yellow to golden yellow, so I believe there is a genetic component as well. I am not to the point in my breedings where leg color is of prime importance to me, but when I do focus on this I will change feeds to be able to select the yellowest legs. I know they are genetically yellow legs and not white. I will work on the phenotype down the road.

The main focus this season was to get wider tails with a bit higher tail angle on the females. I had some success with this-




Also had a couple with too much cushion, but kept the pullet in front because of her width and nicely rounded breast-

I continue to hope to find a nicer cock bird with a fuller chest. This cockerel made it to 7 months and had a pretty good chest but was culled because he did not measure up in overall size.


My question to the judges and breeders....The SOP description calls for a deep and broad body. The illustrations, to me, do not show much depth to the body.
I have been culling this-

and keeping this (both about 6 month old pullets)-

In selecting for the fuller breast and wider tails, I am also getting deeper body depth. Am I going the wrong way with them?

I have never bred Welsummers, but in looking at these last 2 pullets I have noticed that the deeper bodied looking bird also has looser feathering. I'd love to handle these two !

 

[fowlman01]

No worries, pick away. I'm here to learn.

Are you speaking of the chest, or back here? Anyone have a picture of the chest of a welsummer without shafting?

I am talking about the chest.....it should not have shafting.

w.

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

What is this about NO SHAFTING in the breast. The APA SOP says nothing about shafting in that area. The color of the breast is correct, whether there is shafting or not.

 

[faykokoWV]

ok, I'm not clear on "shafting" are you speaking of the lighter lines pictured here on the chest feathers? I've never seen one without this?

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

I totally agree. There is nothing in the APA's SOP mentioning shafting in the breast being wrong. It simply states what the color should be. If this (shafting in the breast) is to be considered a defect, then the standard should be changed. This would eventually lead to an impossible challenge as long as the distinct shafting in the rest of the bird is called for. A comparison with the various standards in other countries will suggest how the two aspects correspond (the German, Dutch, and UK standards, for instance). It is, I think, sort of akin to the impossibility of combining a truly good feather width with straight, clean barring.

 

[faykokoWV]

cpartist - I noticed you said you aren't at a point where leg color is important in your breeding program. I would suggest to you that you consider leg color right up there with importance of body shape and other major issues. Once the yellow coloring is gone, you can't get it back.

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Does someone have a close up picture of the stippling and shafting of the females? This is very important for folks to see and understand.

Walt

Walt, In addition to the shafting issue, the understanding of "stippling" in the Welsummers does need some clarification. Stippling and peppering are listed as separate items in the SOP, and "stippling" is referred to the brown Leghorn females. Looking at the definition of "peppering," however, I feel (this is just my personal opinion, and my degrees are in Linguistics, LOL, even though I have now been retired for several years) that this should be applied to the brown Leghorns female instead. Many of the Welsummer females I have seen (and owned) have something between "stippling" and "penciling" (checking out the SOP definition for the latter), which I personally cull for. The late Ken Cooke and I had several engaging discussion on that topic when the two of us went over the birds at some of the Pacific NW shows during the first couple of years after their adoption into the APA. He was also one of the very few, I think, who understood the "rusty red" (my translation from the German "rostrot") or "reddish brown" color application (Ken used the term "bricky"). Several judges seemed to be looking for something more like the color of a light brown Leghorn female (and some still do). Lastly, he also had a keen eye when it came to stubs, or semblance thereof. Most of the males I raised had that issue.
The Welsummer type we have ended up with is somewhat of a composite type: some features from the Dutch, some from the British, some from the German type--and some uniquely American. A basic agreement about our SOP should be codified, though, so that all sorts of "personal," "local," or "regional" blueprints evolve.

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Oooops, should be "not evolve."

 

[fowlman01]

What is this about NO SHAFTING in the breast. The APA SOP says nothing about shafting in that area. The color of the breast is correct, whether there is shafting or not.

No, it does not say anything about shafting in that area, so it is a general fault in the US and Great Britain . I don't have a Dutch or German Standard, but I do have a British Standard. The British Standard says the same thing as the APA Standard. It does address the shafting on the back, but not the chest. If it does not say it is supposed to be there, it is a fault and that is how any judge in the US would read that.

Where you involved in this qualification too? Shaftng is always a fault unless specifically addressed and described as it is on the back of the Wellies, Quail D'Andvers etc.

Walt