CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[juststruttin]

Thought I would jump in here quickly before this section is over. I provided notes as to what I see and what I think needs work. To me, the polish has been a challenge as my line was very upright with a sever tail angle and dropped wing. I have been working on a flatter back, lower tail and horizontal wing. I have not yet focused on the crest size which clearly needs help. I figure I will work on the crest later. Also, please ignore the color as it is a project and not an approved SOP color. I am focusing on the body shape and will work on improving the color and crest later.

This rooster is young and has some filling out to do. His chest not very prominant. I am hoping it will fill out more with age. Back: His back is broad at the shoulders but tapers too much at tail. He is missing tail feathers so his tail is hard to judge. Right now it looks like he may have a good tail angle. Time will tell. His crest is too small. I have made some progress with the angle of the backs and tails, but I feel my males still stand too upright with too high of a tail carriage. He has a decent wing carriage which will hopefully improve as his back flattened out more.


Here is a photo of a 2011 rooster. As you can see, the tail angle is better on the younger rooster in the first photo. This guy's wing is drooping which has improved improved in the newer generations.










I am pleased with the angle of the backs and tails of the females. However the tails could be broader and more expanded. The chest is also nice but could be deeper. The back is full at the shoulders but tappers too much. I would like to see a broader back at the tail. The legs are also too close together. I am selecting for females with legs set well apart. Girls all carry their wings without dropping.

 

[ramirezframing]

These pics don't show the bird very well, but in the middle picture you can see that the lower chest is flat. As noted: the crest is very small and the tail too low. The middle pic also seems to indicate that the birds wings are too low, but it doesn't show that in the other pictures. You can only. do so much with pictures like this.

Walt

I agree that pictures can only show so much and these aint the best pictures. I admit, I didn't notice the chest in the middle picture. Would this fill out enough with age, since I think the poster of the pictures said the bird was only 6 months old?




Here's a top view of the pullet I posted pictures of earlier, in this picture she is the same age as the others. Would you say she is broad enough in the back, if you can tell from this photo? Thanks for any help.

 

[eeyore75]

OK- not sure I have time to put all my colors up tonight- I will do my Gold Lace in this post (they are split to tolbunt- so I picked a few with the most correct gold lace markings...... that were in feather)
I will try to get the Silver Lace, WC B,B,C, and maybe a tolbunt or two up.
Please feel free to discuss them- I am always looking for a critical eye on my birds-I picked ones I liked a lot for these pics- and of course some of the ones I planned I doing pics of where molting- so they looked too sparse for a photo shoot.


This is my frizzle gold lace pullet (not quite 6 months old- this one was not bred by me)






This is one of my smooth gold lace pullets (the top pic may actually be a 2nd pullet from the 3 below it) She is a little over 6 mos old- may be near 7 months old- I really like this bird, but would like to see her hold herself up better. She will stand nice if I poke at her.......








This is my favorite gold lace rooster- Satan- he is about 17-18 mos old. He has a MAJOR flaw for my breeding program- that is he is non bearded w/ rather large wattles. He is HUGE- possibly the largest polish rooster we have had in the last 6 years, and he has a lovely tail (I have a tail fetish with them- I like a big wide tail), his crest is nice and full, and for a gold lace split to tolbunt- he has kept the gold lace look well. These are the reasons he is still in the gold lace pen. He does have a white spot on the back of his head now and is true major flaw is his leg color- it is not dark enough for a good GL leg tone. (tolbunts have a paler leg issue)

 

[eeyore75]

Here are some of the WC B,B,C

WC Blacks:

pic'd are 2 pullets about 5-6 mos old- I REALLY like these 2- one could use better even tone to the leg color and dark nails, one could use less color in the front of the crest (they both could- I just plucked one down some today- will have to pluck more) But both have great tails and crest, plus they hold themselves well.














this is the oldest WC black pullet- she is not related to the 2 above. She could use more correct crest coloring, but is a very large typey girl body-wise (and her tail is nice and full now (she was about 4 months old in this pic- she is about 7 months old now):




And this is the 1st 2 pullet's brother (way to black in the front of the crest)...... he is coming into himself finally- neither cockerel in the pen is show ready yet they need their tails and crests in- but they seem to be shaping up well.







WC Blue:

I have a nice little 2 month old cockerel that I can't wait to see how he will turn out- he has a great blue color- we had WC cuckoos cover the girls this year and most the babies this year have been cuckoo colored (and bearded :/ ) We do have a WC blue frizzle& a WC black pullets from the rooster before the cuckoo boys came. But all 5 of the WC blue pullets/hens in our pens are too light in color - the smooth ones have good crest coloring, the frizzles have too much color in the crest, and the REALLY light one has the best crest & type. I am hoping between the blue cockerel & the 3 WC blue hens we are hanging onto for breedings next year we will correct the blue color to a better laced darker blue by breeding the blues to the blacks.

This is the lightest blue- she is about 4 months old- and the only blue in feather right now



WC cuckoos

The cuckoo pullets are sadly bearded like their dads- I never got a non bearded one this year. I am hoping that the bearded cuckoo girls will throw non bearded cuckoo pullets with fuller tails next year for me to hold back to breed the following year. The cuckoos are a project. (not as extensive of one as the tolbunts though)







This one looks kinda barred to me:



And their dads:

 

[eeyore75]

The Silver Lace- we just had a trio of them for a few years and finding new blood is proving a bit hard- currently we have one of our 1st hens, 2 of her daughters, 1 of her cockerels, 1 pullet out of a 2nd hen, a new pullet and a new cockerel- both from other places. These are our biggest "need for improvement" pen hopefully next year we will have more chicks we like and the following year be able to see more improvement still.

I really like the old hen- she has an awesome tail & crest & a nice topline- she does have good fullness of body - but is on the smaller side. She of course is moulting!! so no pic of her...

The pullets are a range of likes and dislikes- from crest to body to lacing and so on

About 6 month pullet


one below is about 3-4 months old

One of the 6 month pullets roosting (back looks funny here- but it is
normally straight


The other one of the 6 month pullets- I really like this one's lacing width:


Same bird as above:

Same bird as above:

Same bird as above:

One of the 3month old pullets- I like her tail a lot..... her crest less

Same bird as above: Hoping her lacing comes in more on her tail


Sorry- I never got any of them posing........

 

[HighNDryFarm]

Wow, thank you so much. Printing your post for future referencing. Sometimes I read something and then I think I see it in one of my birds but with your clear description and photos will really help me develop a better eye.

 

[eeyore75]

And on to my favorite polish pen....TOLBUNTS!!!! they are not APA recognized (yet

) so I will only add a few few pics...

This is Owl he is the current main rooster in the tolbunt breeding pen:

He started with his tail up right- but I started poking at him trying to make him pose....... and he didn't like that.


So then- just tail down.


this one shows both head & tail up.


2 of my hens- Abby who I love the body of, and Gwen who I love the crest & lacing of.


This one follows me everywhere and poses......

Same bird as above:


I really like the crest, tail, fullness of body & lacing on this pullet:

I really like how Miss Daisy is presenting herself in this pic-
the birds really do not like posing on this
You can see her tail is nice, her crest has a good shape & she
appears to have a full body (which she does- but frizzling hides that) .



The following are several older chicks (3-6 months) I really like
the bodies on. Many didn't like me poking them to "present"
themselves better, so their tails are down. Time will tell on how
they develop both type & coloring

 

[1muttsfan]

4H, during shows judges are usually quite busy and don't always have the time to make individual comments. If you wait until they are less busy, between or after classes, many will discuss your birds with you. Walt is often mentioned on other threads as having been very helpful to people when asked about their birds, and I think many judges are similar in their wish to help people improve their birds.

Perhaps it would not hurt to mention that it is hard for anyone to make constructive comments if they think feelings will be hurt - it is not always easy to hear criticism of a bird that turns out not to be the perfect specimen you thought! It takes a lot of fortitude to swallow your pride and see a bird differently. The stars in my eyes have obscured my sight at times with an especially much-desired bird.

I find my birds easier to evaluate using pictures. A clear shot from the side with the bird standing normally is best. Even a small angle to the top or bottom, or from side to side, can make a big difference in how a bird appears. It is really useless to say "But that is not how he usually stands (looks, etc)", as we can only judge what we see.

I also thought tail angle was measured from the bird's backline.

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Here is another question regarding body type of the Polish: The SOP states that the back should be "straight, broadest at shoulders, tapering with concave sweep near base of tail." I have always interpreted "straight" to mean "horizontal." The SOP illustrations of the Polish all show a pretty strong slope on the back. Which is the correct interpretation--the one demonstrated in the illustrations or the one I have (perhaps mistakenly) taken from the SOP text? I hope Walt or any expert Polish breeder would weigh in on this issue, as I think this is a cardinal point as concerns type.
Bjorn

 

[juststruttin]

Here is another question regarding body type of the Polish: The SOP states that the back should be "straight, broadest at shoulders, tapering with concave sweep near base of tail." I have always interpreted "straight" to mean "horizontal." The SOP illustrations of the Polish all show a pretty strong slope on the back. Which is the correct interpretation--the one demonstrated in the illustrations or the one I have (perhaps mistakenly) taken from the SOP text? I hope Walt or any expert Polish breeder would weigh in on this issue, as I think this is a cardinal point as concerns type.
Bjorn

Great question. I look forward to the answer. To me, a good % of polish's I've seen have too much slope to their backs.

Which brings me back to the squirrel tail issue. I understood that squirrel tail was measure by degrees based on the horizontal line (anterior base), but it was brought up that is was measured by the birds back. So my question is: do you measure from the horizontal line (anterior base) as described in figure 34 of the SOP or do you measure from the birds back (even when slopped)?