Day 23 - Assistance Needed

[Tenrec]

I would not leave the turners in. They increase the risk of leg injury for newly hatched chicks. However, if you want to hatch upright many do hatch in cut down cartons. Especially with shipped that have had air cell damage.

I personally stop turning the end of day 13. The Cobb development chart states that the chicks turn to the big end about day 14 so I let them rest at that point. It's not necessary to turn chicken eggs after the second week. I don't have issues with malpositioned chicks either. I can't say for a fact that's why, but logic tells me less interference while they are turning the better.

I was pm'd by a young man that was having multiple malpos in his hatches. I explained how I stopped turning early and offered it up as something to try. Which he did and reported after his next hatch that his # of malpos had dropped significantly. The only thing he did different was stopped turning for day 14. I'm not saying it couldn't be coincidence, but it doesn't hurt to try it.

About day 17 they position themselves for hatch. Head under wing beak up. It's been the practice to stop turning to coincide with "lockdown" and highering humidity forever, but I think it makes more sense to stop prior to the two periods where they are positioning. I believe a mother hen sitting on eggs can most likely feel the movement and has natural instinct to sit tight when there's movement. It's just my personal philosophy. Feel free to join us on the hands on thread anytime. We have some awesome regulars who love helping and chatting.

Yes, I'm wary of turners in general. I don't like moving parts in my incubators...But that might be a control issue for me, hahaha. I know even with egg turners, you need to flip the eggs 180 degrees once a day, right?

I might attempt a cut-up carton for my entire clutch I'm setting probably next week, regardless of damage. More than a few of these guys were a day late, also, so I might up the temperature 0.5 degrees.

That's the first time I've heard of not turning past day 13! Interesting. I get your logic, though, and it's certainly worth a shot. Do you do the same for damaged air cells? What about humidity changes? When do you start upping humidity for yours?

I know there are studies on broody incubation and how often they turn their chicks a day...I wonder if broodies have been followed for that behavior over the course of the entire incubation period? I know that in more than one species of birds, there is chemical communication between the embryos and the hen, so I'm not surprised if she's feeling something that we're just not biologically set up for like her.

An update on a malpositioned chick, by the way...It was simply a matter of its head being directed away from the air cell, but I came across one recently that was weak and obviously not going to pip on its own, internally or externally. So I saw/palpated for the neck, carefully got my trimmed pinkie in there and away from as many vessels as possible, and pulled the neck and head up and out of the membrane. It didn't bleed terribly, but it was clear this was the chick's first shot at pulmonary respiration...Poor thing. I managed to coax a few squeaks out of it, and it's currently resting, head out of the shell and wrapped in a damp paper towel. Do you think this is an ok protocol for such an issue?

And I probably will join your thread...I think there's a lot to learn here. Thanks.

 

[Erka97]

That chick sounds like my "Sponge," and I assume it's a good protocol as she's still alive and well now almost three months later. Any way that lets them breathe without bleeding too much is good.. Now all there really is to do is leave the chick with the remainder of its shell to absorb its blood and yolk; it took a few hours for mine, laying instead on a bed I made for her out of a sponge rather than a paper towel, and she wasn't really going anywhere for the next day or so anyway. I noticed she had some sticky spots where her feathers didn't fluff up, too, and I've heard this is more common with malpositioned chicks. Have others noticed that? How about leg problems? Sponge couldn't use one of her legs for about a day after she was born, nor did she want to open her eyes, and I assume this is some effect of her traumatic hatching. Perhaps from the position or the low oxygen?

 

[AmyLynn2374]

Yes, I'm wary of turners in general.  I don't like moving parts in my incubators...But that might be a control issue for me, hahaha.  I know even with egg turners, you need to flip the eggs 180 degrees once a day, right?

I might attempt a cut-up carton for my entire clutch I'm setting probably next week, regardless of damage.  More than a few of these guys were a day late, also, so I might up the temperature 0.5 degrees.

That's the first time I've heard of not turning past day 13!  Interesting.  I get your logic, though, and it's certainly worth a shot.  Do you do the same for damaged air cells?  What about humidity changes?  When do you start upping humidity for yours?

I know there are studies on broody incubation and how often they turn their chicks a day...I wonder if broodies have been followed for that behavior over the course of the entire incubation period?  I know that in more than one species of birds, there is chemical communication between the embryos and the hen, so I'm not surprised if she's feeling something that we're just not biologically set up for like her.

An update on a malpositioned chick, by the way...It was simply a matter of its head being directed away from the air cell, but I came across one recently that was weak and obviously not going to pip on its own, internally or externally.  So I saw/palpated for the neck, carefully got my trimmed pinkie in there and away from as many vessels as possible, and pulled the neck and head up and out of the membrane.  It didn't bleed terribly, but it was clear this was the chick's first shot at pulmonary respiration...Poor thing.  I managed to coax a few squeaks out of it, and it's currently resting, head out of the shell and wrapped in a damp paper towel.  Do you think this is an ok protocol for such an issue?

And I probably will join your thread...I think there's a lot to learn here.  Thanks.

When you use automatic turners you don't have to touch the eggs at all. I run my bator, forced air at 100F. When I used the old LG it ran between 100-102 lol my hatches were always early...but healthy. As long as I am above 99.5 I'm happy. I've never really had damaged air cells. With the exception of my silkie eggs, all my hatches were local eggs to start with, then my own. My silkie eggs were so expertly stored and packed that the air cells were tiny, couldn't see many and the most "damaged" were just 3-4 wobbly ones. I put them in the incubator after 12 hours sitting at rest, upright in cut down cartons. Did not turn the first 24 hours. After that I tilted for the next 2 days. By day 4 they were firmed and perfect so I laid them down and hatched like I normally would. I don't higher humidity for hatch until normal day 18. Turning is the only thing I change.

As for the malpo chick, I'm not a big one for going in before the pip. However, if something looks drastically wrong, or the hatch is over with no one one left to pip but still signs of life, chances are it's going to die in the shell, so if you have the drive to explore, and can make a little progress, hey, you might as well try. I had one a couple hatches ago. I knew it wasn't right. Position didn't look right, too much clear where I didn't expect it too be. All my others had at least internally pipped and had been for the better part of the day. So I went in. I was right, something was wrong. The egg hadn't lost enough fluid. I literally tilted the egg and fluid ran out.. a lot. I found the beak and got it up and out and it started breathing showing signs of life. I replaced it and kept an eye on it. I decided no matter what happened I was glad I made the decision, because there is no doubt it would have drowned if I hadn't. He lasted at least 12 hours, but died during the night. No bad feelings. It was a chance he didn't have.

Instead of wrapping the paper towel around it if you have non pain relief neosporin or Vaseline or coconut oil, you can put a light coat over the exposed membrane and it'll keep it moist.

 

[Tenrec]

Thanks for the advice, AmyLynn. Sorry to hear about that assist, that sounds pretty rough. He definitely did not have a chance on his own.

I hate to say that my more severe malpo didn't make it...I wish there was some actual research done on these guys re: assisting, but I know helping malpos isn't going to be work in super high demand for general ag research. Perhaps for conservation programs? Didn't there used to be a fellow on here that worked in conservation?

With cases of extreme blood loss, I know that, in animals, severe blood loss causes dehydration. Blood volume is also decreased, and in emergency cases, restoration of blood volume, and thus blood pressure, with a normal saline solution is the first line of action (obviously impossible in a hatching chick). The yolk is supposed to give these birds the nutrients they need for up to 3 days...I just wonder how available that is for a chick in critical condition. Could there be something going on re: electrolytes with serious assistance cases? Obviously giving anything PO to a bird that hasn't even begun to breathe on its own isn't going to help. I'm just curious.

 

[MrsChicky55]

Hey, thanks for the advice.

The vessels were bright. When I went to go start chipping, I saw the blood had left them...Which wasn't good. The bird passed before I even got in there.

Opened the egg up, malpositioned as expected. Head between legs and quite a ways from the air cell.

I don't think this little guy was viable. He's a silkie, which often have vaulted skulls, but I don't think I've ever seen one like this.


Graphic pictures to follow:









The abdomen was also a bit herniated. He must have been straining pretty hard. : (

I just hatched a silkie chick with a vaulted skull just like that. I assumed maybe it had been crossed with a Polish for a bigger crest?