Dead mountain quail...what could have caused this?

[JJMR794]

Sounds Like Somebody Will Be Worming And Dusting This Holiday Weekend.

Pumpkin Is Good (raw And Unprocessed That Is...) And Does A Good Job, But Once A Yr Is Not Nearly Often Enough For Ground Dwelling Birds--- Especially New World Quail Speces Which Are 100x's More Likely To Have Difficulties Than Coturnix. Deworming Compounds Are Only Poison To The Worms... They Dont Get Absorbed Into Your Birds, The Meds Themselves Never Leave The Digestive Track... Just Go Right Through. For Ground Dwellers I Would Recommend Quarterly Deworming Schedule And Rotating Deworming Products. Many Larger Scale Breeding Facilities Also Incorporate Anti Cocci And Antibiotic Treatments In Quarterly As Well For New World Quail In Ground Pens As They Are Susceptible To Many Ailments By Being Contained In The Same Area For A Length Of Time... Cocci And Enteritis Are Just A Couple, Add Encephalitis And Parasites To The Mix Along With About 2 Dozen Other Possible Illnesses

Sevin Dust Wont Harm Your Birds Either... An Empty Feed Sack, A Likely Suspect, And A Healthy Sprinkling Of Sevin Dust--- Close Sack And Aggitate Gently, When Done Open Sack (inside Secure Pen!) And Release The Newly Deloused Suspect.... They Should Look Like A Surprized Mtn Quail Version Of Casper The Spazzed Out Ghost=== Mission Accomplished

A Thorough Saturation Of Permethrin Solution Allowed To Air Dry Will Delouse All Structures And Aviaries

If Nothing Else For Peace Of Mind And Basically Just Good Animal Husbandry For Your Stock... May Not Be Related To Your Girl's Passing In Any Way, But Preventative Care That Will Never Hurt Anyone And Can Only Be Of Assistance In Preventing Further Problems Is Always Well Worth The Trouble And Expense

 

[londonbridges]

Sorry to hear about the loss of your hen. Ihave had mountains for afew years and i lost a hen the same way.It seems with mountains every thing seems to happen in breeding season. Mountains should be kept off the ground and their pen clean. I keep apan full of sand in their pen and also give them bird seed, the kind you feed song birds and also greens,lettuce ,clover apples, berries and watermelon. keeping quail on the ground this is a good way to get parasites,but i keep mine on wire and this hen come down with the same thing. Toe picking is another trait of mountain quail, which usually happens in breeding season,i use vetrex and blukote , if you have mountains this is agood first aid kit. I mix diatamacheaus earth t with their shavings this is good for them to dust in to get rid of mites.my quail are molting now ,as i almost think yours are doing,by the sounds of things. I have mountain chicks and you have to clip their beaks at 4 days old up to 5 or 6weeks , to keep them from toe picking . they are a real challenge to raise as young birds and also you should clip your birds beaks and their nails ,use vetrex ,to rub their legs down this will help with mite and scaley legs, which can lead to toe picking. but, dont give up they are beautiful birds and even though you may get discouraged keep up with what you are doing , because no matter how good you treat your birds you always will lose some.you need 5 or 6 hens for what males you have,they should be alright where the breeding season is over,but Ican help you with hens between me and a friend of mine if you need a couple .keep in touch Doug

 

[laramie6]

Okay, a few things...I'll cut this up into three posts so that it's hopefully easier to read.

I went to the state vet today and gave them the bird; they said that there's only one person in the state that does these types of things (necropsies) and they're on vacation until next week. The bird will be put on ice and kept in their lab for further inspection for when that person gets back, but since there will be about a week's time between when the bird died and when the bird is thoroughly inspected that could mean that by the time the necropsy is done it would be too late to really tell anything due to the amount of time that's gone by.

However, the guy I talked to offered to do a preliminary necropsy of his own to see what he could find out today since time is a factor. He called later and told me that he saw "no obvious visible signs of worms or other parasites" and didn't see any marks on the skin or plumage that would indicate mites. He did say that the worms could have deteriorated by this point which would be why he didn't see any, but he didn't think that was likely. He also said that the mites would have left the bird by now so he wouldn't physically find them if the bird *did* have mites, but again, he didn't think it was likely due to the skin/plumage condition.

He noticed two things out of the ordinary, but didn't think either one caused the bird's death. The first was "peritonidis" which is explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peritonitis
But he said that it was mild and that if it was due to the result of a disease or infection it would typically be accompanied by liquid in the abdomen (there was none) or other signs, but he didn't see anything else that would suggest that. His best guess was that it was a result of a mild trauma of some sort (maybe flying into something) and could have been recent or could have been months ago, but he didn't think it was enough to cause the bird's death.
The other abnormal thing he noticed was that the bird was no longer producing any eggs...I'm not exactly sure how he could tell this, but he said that either the bird never laid eggs to begin with or had laid them in the past and had since stopped (for good). He didn't know what to make of this but didn't think that was connected to the death either.

So to sum up his findings: unlikely that worms were the cause, unlikely that mites were the cause, peritonidis was present but didn't seem life-threatening and this female had stopped egg production for the remainder of her life for some unknown reason but that hasn't been connected to the cause of death either. Basically he doesn't know what happened either...so the mystery continues. A more thorough examination will be done next week but I'm not sure how much more they'll be able to find...

 

[laramie6]

Now, as for mites...
I'm not at all sure that mites had anything to do with the hen's death (she didn't show any of the weak or slow symptoms prior to death and in fact seemed to be running around faster than usual) but I do think it may still be an issue with my mountain quail. I checked on the quail an hour or so ago and watched them for a while and one of them definitely kept pecking/biting at itself. I always thought this sort of behavior was just normal preening but now I have my doubts. This same bird has a few spots where some feathers are loose/missing but not anywhere near enough so that you can actually see bare skin. I also checked their pen closely for mites but found nothing. I'll look more thoroughly tomorrow but if they only come out at night then there may not be much use...

I looked up mites on this forum and found way more info than I can process...most of the posts and threads on here talk about dealing with chickens infected with mites and the solutions are mostly things like bathing/blowdrying them or dipping them in a bucket of insecticide all except their head or filling a bag with mite powder and then holding the bird inside it with just their head poking out etc which I can't see doing with a quail. Catching and holding them is quite a bit more difficult than catching and holding a chicken and they thrash and flap so much that I can already envision the dust and/or liquid insecticide flying everywhere...

As for the Sevin Dust, I've found conflicting reports on this...plenty of posts and sites saying it's the standard treatment and plenty saying it's horrible poison and should be avoided at all costs. Reading the warning label certainly didn't help assure me that it's safe to use. All the posts I've read about using the sevin dust on birds mention not to let it get in their eyes or mouth but I don't see how that could be avoided if they were entirely enclosed in a bag full of it

I'm also wary about using it in their dust bathing area since it happens to be immediately next to both their food and their water. They have a covered area with boards serving as the floor and straw on top of the boards and for whatever reason that's where they always go to dust bathe, even though there's barely any dust there and it's mostly just bare wood they're scratching/rolling on. I'm constantly having to change their water since they scratch so much straw and dirt into it...so by treating that area I'm a bit worried about them scratching toxic chemicals into their food and water supplies and then ingesting it. I'm thinking of putting Diatomaceous Earth down in that area instead, although I've read it doesn't help much if mites are already a problem

I hate putting these already-sensitive birds at risk by exposing them to toxic chemicals but I don't know if I'd be putting them more at risk by *not* exposing them to it. I just have a bad image of treating them with whatever product and then coming out the next morning to find them all dead.

So I guess these are my "mite" questions now:
-How likely is it that mites are what's causing the feather loss and the birds pecking at themselves? Could it just be molting and preening?
-Could I get away with just using a permethrin spray instead of the sevin dust? AKA spraying the entire pen with it and misting the birds with it? This is the spray I had in mind: (link )
-What about Ivermectin? It says it's for use with cattle but I've read threads on here about people having good luck with just putting drops between the bird's shoulder blades and all the mites/lice dying soon after. This is the cheapest pour-on Ivermectin I could find: (link )
-If I can't see the mites to begin with, how can I tell if the treatment worked and got rid of them? Would the birds no longer pecking at themselves be enough of an indicator that they're all gone?

 

[laramie6]

Quote:
Did you find out for sure what happened to your hen?

and a bit off topic but do your birds still lay after their first year of egg production? I ask because I've only raised mountain quail for 1 year and I'm wondering about why the necropsy showed that this hen was "all out" of eggs after laying season ended. Also, when do you typically find that their breeding season ends?

I do keep their pen clean and keep the ground dry whenever it rains by putting a tarp over the top so it doesn't get damp and no mud or puddles form which, from what I understand, is the biggest danger with keeping them on ground. So I do everything I can to prevent this sort of thing but it seems that it may not have been enough

It's good to know that they'll do okay at the 3:2 ratio now that breeding season's over, but I'd definitely be interested in a hen or two (or three?) later on if you have some; PM me and I'd be happy to try and work something out.

Thanks for all the tips and advice so far...I think my next step will be to treat them for mites, even if it's not what killed the hen, and hopefully next week's necropsy will provide an answer.

 

[JJMR794]

Quote:
Did you find out for sure what happened to your hen?

and a bit off topic but do your birds still lay after their first year of egg production? I ask because I've only raised mountain quail for 1 year and I'm wondering about why the necropsy showed that this hen was "all out" of eggs after laying season ended. Also, when do you typically find that their breeding season ends?

I do keep their pen clean and keep the ground dry whenever it rains by putting a tarp over the top so it doesn't get damp and no mud or puddles form which, from what I understand, is the biggest danger with keeping them on ground. So I do everything I can to prevent this sort of thing but it seems that it may not have been enough

It's good to know that they'll do okay at the 3:2 ratio now that breeding season's over, but I'd definitely be interested in a hen or two (or three?) later on if you have some; PM me and I'd be happy to try and work something out.

Thanks for all the tips and advice so far...I think my next step will be to treat them for mites, even if it's not what killed the hen, and hopefully next week's necropsy will provide an answer.

THERE'S A BETTER THAN AVERAGE CHANCE YOUR GIRL BEING ALL OUT OF EGGS AND HER PERITONITIS ARE CONNECTED... I WOULD HIGHLY RECOMMEND A 2ND VET OPINION... THE ONLY PERITONITIS POSSIBLE FROM TRAUMA WOULD BE FRESH AND IS BLOOD ACCUMULATION... SOME OF THE ANSWER YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN DON'T MAKE SENSE. IF SHE HAD AN INFECTIOUS PROCESS GOIN IN THE REPRODUCTIVE TRACT THAT COULD CERTAINLY CAUSE HER PERITONITIS AND BE A REASON FOR NO EGG PRODUCTION (WHILE THIS MALADY WOULD BE PRETTY UNCOMMON FOR QUAIL. IT DOES MAKE SENSE WHEN THE 2 ARE ADDED TOGATHER AND I NEVER RULE OUT AN POSSIBILITY SUCH AS THIS WHEN COMES TO GAMEBIRDS NO MATTER HOW UNCOMMON)

PERMETHRIN WOULD WORK AS A TREATMENT FOR MITES... I WOULD PASS ON THE IVERMEC UNLESS YOU WERE USING IT FOR DEWORMING WHICH REQUIRES INTERNAL/ INGESTED USE

 

[laramie6]

I'm hoping that the necropsy on the 5th will provide some answers on the peritonitis/cause of death, still not really sure what to make of that...

I went out this morning and found one of the quail laying on its side with its eyes closed, looking dead...I clapped my hands and made noise and it didn't move. I went in and got up close to it and only then did it hop up and start moving around again. It was the male with the most missing feathers out of the bunch and also the smallest/skinniest looking. I left for a little while and came back and he was laying there in the same position again...I think he was just sunbathing, but I got a few pictures and you can see why I'd think he was dead:

After he got up two other quail went over and laid down in the same spot so I assume that type of behavior is normal, but at least in those pictures you can sort of see what I mean about the missing feathers. I also took a short video where you can see the quail pecking at itself (because of mites?) and also kind of slumping over for what I hope is just sunbathing:
www.vimeo.com/laramie/quailvideo

I checked all over for mites and found some things that *could* be mites but I'm not sure...I'd really rather not treat for them unless I'm sure they're a problem. But since I think that's probably unrelated to the quail's death I made a separate thread about the mites in case anyone wants to help me out on that front
Thanks again, I'll post back with updates

 

[Tony K T]

I lost a colony of mountains a few years back.The same senario,no signs of broken necks,rougheled feathers nothing seemed out of place.Then I asked a guy that had raised and bred them for years.He asked "explain your set up,feed and covers."Well my set up was they are in an off ground pen with wire bottom,wired on all 4 sides and covered with poly on the roof.Feed was gamebird crumble unmedicated with branch coverings inside for them to hide in.He said everything sounds right except for one thing.This is a mountain quial,you need to let the elements get to them in all seasons as they need rain and snow to keep them from drying out.In their natural habitat,the mountains,they are exposed to all the elements which help them survive in the wild.They were always covered when I had them,so I guess this is what went wrong with mine.
In N.H.,Tony.

 

[laramie6]

Quote:
really? Thats strange, I would have thought all the dampness and mud from the rain would hurt them rather than help them. Their outdoor run was uncovered before but whenever it rained hard and I didn't have a tarp over the top the ground inside the pen would turn to mud and large mud puddles would form, which is the type of habitat I've read you definitely do not want quail living in. Also, they always sleep outside, even when it's pouring rain or freezing cold (the rest of my birds have enough sense to go inside -- not the mountains) so I figured letting them get drenched overnight while they were outside uncovered probably wouldn't be a good idea. Anyway, I've had a tarp on top of the pen ever since mid-May when there were weeks of solid rain, so I wonder if that could have anything to do with the bird's death...hmmm...

I should also mention that I saw two of the males fighting yesterday, which I haven't seen since the beginning of breeding season. One male would chase the other around and around and occasionally the other male would fight back and they'd peck at each others beak and face. I didn't intervene at first and went inside for about 10 minutes and then came back out to see if they had stopped, but they were still going at it. I'd say they were fighting and chasing each other for probably 20-30 minutes before I stepped in and scared them all inside. I kept a close eye on them after that but didn't see them fighting again and haven't seen any evidence of it today so far either. I didn't see any blood drawn and both males still looked normal afterward but with that female being gone I'm concerned if they do it again they might keep fighting until one of them gets killed. Should I take one of the males out and keep him in a separate cage or should I leave them be? Again, thanks for the help

 

[JJMR794]

Given The Rarity And Expense Of The Speces I Would Seperate. They Will Continue To Fight Until Unsavory Results Occur