Debbie's Silkies

[Debbie292d]

I was wondering if it was some expression of the different underlying genetics, something about buff over extended black vs buff over wheaten, and then how you cross those two to get just the right shade of buff?

I hope they are buff for you anyway!

That could be what those are! Good thinking! Next spring's breeding pens just got a whole lot more interesting!

 

[janiedoe]

I was wondering if it was some expression of the different underlying genetics, something about buff over extended black vs buff over wheaten, and then how you cross those two to get just the right shade of buff?

I hope they are buff for you anyway!

If this is from the same person who has the blue cream/porcelain maybe its a lavender over buff. I'm not sure how many generations it takes to get the cream in the isabel color.

 

[Debbie292d]

If this is from the same person who has the blue cream/porcelain maybe its a lavender over buff. I'm not sure how many generations it takes to get the cream in the isabel color.

It is!

She doesn't show anymore, but she was a champion exhibitor a few years ago.

 

[Nomadicus]

Showing would be fun if it was not for the traveling and having to leave the farm behind.

 

[janiedoe]

Showing would be fun if it was not for the traveling and having to leave the farm behind.

And the worries about bringing home a disease.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

@pipdzipdnreadytogo has a TON of knowledge on genetics!

Shucks, I try my best anyway

There's a couple others I'm sure are buff, a couple white, that dark one I don't know, but those three, not sure especially with the black and red two-tone thing going on.

Looking at that group picture of the chicks in post #844, genetically I see EWh and eb partridge, and the little black chick is most likely E or ER. The two-toned ones appear to be eb/eb, while the others look to me like they are either EWh/eb or EWh/EWh.

If that hasn't lost you entirely, a little bit of context: these are e-locus genes, the group of genes that generally determine the overall arrangement of pigment in the feathers.

In some breeds, Buff is based on EWh, sometimes with dominant white to disguise any black leaking through in the tail and wing feathers. EWh gives fairly even coloring, and it tends to give solid-colored chick down, usually yellowish to reddish, sometimes with spotting or slight striping on the head and back. Buff based on EWh tends to be more of a 'pure' buff color in adult plumage, that soft orange color all the way down the feather, maybe only getting a bit paler in the downy part of the feathering.

Some other breeds' Buff varieties are based on eb partridge, which tends to give them a richer orange color and they tend to have darker, blackish or grayish down feather coloring underneath their buff exterior feathering. This gene also makes the chicks sort of a deep brown to brown-orange color, hence the 'b' in eb, sometimes with striping or just a two-toned sort of appearance on the back as you've observed with some of yours. The ones colored like this are generally more likely to show black in the tail and wing feathers as adults, and potentially the neck feathers as well, depending on other genes at play that are not possible to predict at this stage.

Buff in general is a pretty genetically complex color, and that complexity is compounded by a few factors in Silkies, particularly that silkied feathering tends to hide or blur the expression of color leakage or other incorrect genes so that they are less obvious or sometimes not really visible at all in the adult plumage. Buff Silkies in particular tend to hide a lot of heterozygosity and random genes, from my understanding, which is why you can get such variance in the chick down coloring of Buff Silkie chicks as you're seeing.

So in other words, while there may be a variety of genetics in those chicks, it's entirely possible they'll still all feather out Buff (the exception being that black-colored baby, of course), just with varying shades of the color and potentially with black showing through in the wing and tail on some of them. I hope that helped some--and that it wasn't way more information than you cared to have dumped on you!

 

[janiedoe]

Shucks, I try my best anyway View attachment 3877705




Looking at that group picture of the chicks in post #844, genetically I see EWh and eb partridge, and the little black chick is most likely E or ER. The two-toned ones appear to be eb/eb, while the others look to me like they are either EWh/eb or EWh/EWh.

If that hasn't lost you entirely, a little bit of context: these are e-locus genes, the group of genes that generally determine the overall arrangement of pigment in the feathers.

In some breeds, Buff is based on EWh, sometimes with dominant white to disguise any black leaking through in the tail and wing feathers. EWh gives fairly even coloring, and it tends to give solid-colored chick down, usually yellowish to reddish, sometimes with spotting or slight striping on the head and back. Buff based on EWh tends to be more of a 'pure' buff color in adult plumage, that soft orange color all the way down the feather, maybe only getting a bit paler in the downy part of the feathering.

Some other breeds' Buff varieties are based on eb partridge, which tends to give them a richer orange color and they tend to have darker, blackish or grayish down feather coloring underneath their buff exterior feathering. This gene also makes the chicks sort of a deep brown to brown-orange color, hence the 'b' in eb, sometimes with striping or just a two-toned sort of appearance on the back as you've observed with some of yours. The ones colored like this are generally more likely to show black in the tail and wing feathers as adults, and potentially the neck feathers as well, depending on other genes at play that are not possible to predict at this stage.

Buff in general is a pretty genetically complex color, and that complexity is compounded by a few factors in Silkies, particularly that silkied feathering tends to hide or blur the expression of color leakage or other incorrect genes so that they are less obvious or sometimes not really visible at all in the adult plumage. Buff Silkies in particular tend to hide a lot of heterozygosity and random genes, from my understanding, which is why you can get such variance in the chick down coloring of Buff Silkie chicks as you're seeing.

So in other words, while there may be a variety of genetics in those chicks, it's entirely possible they'll still all feather out Buff (the exception being that black-colored baby, of course), just with varying shades of the color and potentially with black showing through in the wing and tail on some of them. I hope that helped some--and that it wasn't way more information than you cared to have dumped on you!

While you are here, I'm interested in the isabel/blue cream color. (I'm not raising any silkies or otherwise, just curiosity.)
1. How do breeders introduce the cream color into the self blue color?
2. If you breed a lavender to a blue cream and get lavender, will that cream show up in future generations?

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

While you are here, I'm interested in the isabel/blue cream color. (I'm not raising any silkies or otherwise, just curiosity.)
1. How do breeders introduce the cream color into the self blue color?
2. If you breed a lavender to a blue cream and get lavender, will that cream show up in future generations?

So, I don't have any experience with Blue Cream in Silkies, but doing some searching it looks like they're the result of some generations of crossing Lavender to Buff and back again. That would explain how the cream color was introduced!

Lavender as a dilution gene has a strong impact on both black and gold pigments in the plumage. If you look at genetically identical patterns that only differ in the presence or absence of the lavender gene, you'll notice that the black parts of the feather are diluted to that silvery-blue-gray color typical of Lavender and the red, gold, or brown parts of the feather are diluted to a yellowish or creamy color. Mille Fleur d'Uccles and Porcelain d'Uccles are a good example of this; genetically the only difference between the two patterns is the expression of the lavender gene. Essentially, the cream color you're seeing is gold pigment that is being diluted to that cream color by the same gene that is diluting the black parts of the feather to lavender.

If you were to breed Lavender to Blue Cream and end up with pure Lavender offspring, those birds are likely to throw some cream color in their own offspring, yes. However, the initial cross of Lavender to Blue Cream would probably not produce pure Lavenders and instead make leaky Lavenders that look somewhat in between the two colors; not pure lavender, but not with enough cream for a proper Blue Cream.

 

[janiedoe]

So, I don't have any experience with Blue Cream in Silkies, but doing some searching it looks like they're the result of some generations of crossing Lavender to Buff and back again. That would explain how the cream color was introduced!

Lavender as a dilution gene has a strong impact on both black and gold pigments in the plumage. If you look at genetically identical patterns that only differ in the presence or absence of the lavender gene, you'll notice that the black parts of the feather are diluted to that silvery-blue-gray color typical of Lavender and the red, gold, or brown parts of the feather are diluted to a yellowish or creamy color. Mille Fleur d'Uccles and Porcelain d'Uccles are a good example of this; genetically the only difference between the two patterns is the expression of the lavender gene. Essentially, the cream color you're seeing is gold pigment that is being diluted to that cream color by the same gene that is diluting the black parts of the feather to lavender.

If you were to breed Lavender to Blue Cream and end up with pure Lavender offspring, those birds are likely to throw some cream color in their own offspring, yes. However, the initial cross of Lavender to Blue Cream would probably not produce pure Lavenders and instead make leaky Lavenders that look somewhat in between the two colors; not pure lavender, but not with enough cream for a proper Blue Cream.

Thank you! That was very informative. One more questions, I saw someone advertising a hen as buff split for lavender. Is that even a thing? I thought that lavender bred to buff would make all black offsprings.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

Thank you! That was very informative. One more questions, I saw someone advertising a hen as buff split for lavender. Is that even a thing? I thought that lavender bred to buff would make all black offsprings.

Sorry for the delayed response!

You are correct that Lavender x Buff would produce a black bird, likely with moderate to heavy buff leakage depending on the genes that the buff parent has. When a bird is 'split' to something, typically that's referring to a specific gene, not a full pattern. So Buff split to lavender just means that it's a Buff bird that carries the lavender gene, not that it has the genes to produce a solid Lavender coloration in its offspring. Such a bird could come from crossing Blue Cream to Buff.