Deep litter method in Arizona (Zone 9)… not working?

[RennaeHanson]

@RennaeHanson i agree with you. I don't have chicken's dieing over here neither.

What is auto-sexing?

 

[BlueBaby]

What is auto-sexing?

You can tell the sex of the chick after they hatch, and staying with only that breed, that sexing at hatch breeds true.

 

[paintedChix]

This is a long post, LOL!

As far as your deep litter method goes, it sounds like you are actually doing deep bedding.

Your coop has a cinder block floor? Does your run also have cinderblock floor or open to the ground? I understand it is all kept dry due to environment (been a long time since I've visited AZ & i remember dry & hot, bloody noses, red irritated eyes & sand where there wasn't pavement - i stayed w/ friends for 2 weeks). There are several places I'd love to visit now, though!

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Our journey w/ DLM -

I live in a different environment. Humid & hot or humid & cold and sometimes very little humidity. We bought 21 acres in December 2014 - predominantly sand (sandhills of NC) & during extreme humidity or rain events, the stench from the sand was sometimes enough to make family members quite ill. History of property was originally monocropped - using pesticides, chemical fertilizers & herbicides... The only livestock was several horses boarded for several years on the mostly cleared & fenced 7 acres - not sure how long. For 2 yrs before we purchased, 3 mini horses were in that pasture - it was all one enclosure. Lots of open sand - no ants, no bugs, very little green weeds. Very little grass.

When we moved in, we put up 2 smaller pastures & several pens w/i the big pasture. W/ our ponies & 2 full size horses, we fed round bales & each new one put out was in a different area. Waste hay & manure were left in place. The chickens were originally in 3 hooped tractors, but the terrain made it difficult to move them, so they were parked. I free ranged the birds & would "herd" them towards those waste hay piles. They spread the hay & manure, plus added manure themselves.

In the parked pens, i used leaves, hay, pinestraw, small limbs & pinecones, shredded paper & cardboard, pine shavings, saw dust & sometimes small amounts of pony manure in the 3 coop/pens which were in the pasture. Veggie scraps & leftovers not eaten went into it too. I didn't have gardens yet, so as it broke down, I dug under the whole top layers. Then I spread it out from the coops to bigger & bigger surrounding areas... Most times, the deeper I kept the litter, lower layers stayed damp. When the Hurricanes in both 2016 & 2018 hit, that deep litter kept the pens "dry" (they were spongey, but not wet) - while water flowed around them. In 2018, in 2 - 8x10' pens behind the house, we hadn't gotten a lot of litter in yet. Afterwards, for each feed bag of wet loamy sand removed, dumped in 2 bags of yard debri. While that was still much higher in sand, I still took it out to pasture to spread.

My understanding is that DLM is done on the ground. Different sizes of usually different materials. This allows water flow trough & aeration. Wood chips/mulch are usually different sizes & are often used alone. As it sits, bug life shows up, chickens stir it up & add fertilizer & it breaks down, becoming compost.

I explained that so you could understand what I did. When we had dry times & the DLM was dry/dusty, I dumped the waterers in side. When refilling them, I'd hose down the interior for a bit. Did 2 things - cooled down my birds, stopped the dust & aided in the breakdown of the DLM.

Here is a link to my album on DLM -

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3Z4ZpfpHr1Nr5DZC8

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Here on BYC, I've seen where DLM can be used in a floored coop. It is recommended that an innocullant from under bushes or trees in your own yard or collected from an actual forest be added to the litter. Then the litter needs to be different sizes or types. Needs some moisture, not kept dry. I do not know which folk here on BYC did or do this now. I learned about DLM in late 2014 & started using it in 2015.

I think the 1st articles i saw were by BeeKissed (has a you tube vid under MountainWoman) , then Aart, then lots of others. It doesn't work for some. Some only use wood mulch/chip. Others use combination like i do.

@gtaus has documented using only paper shreds in his coop as dry bedding, then transferring to run to compost. It's fascinating!

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Unfortunately, I can't give any ideas about your chickens dying. I am sorry for you losses.

 

[WingItRanch]

I'm just going to give a quick explanation of how I do it. I use pine shavings and only pull the bedding out twice a year. The chickens do a good job of stirring the litter inside the coop so all I do is add a little fresh pine shaving when I feel it needs it. It never smells. Then in the fall and spring, I pull all the dirty bedding out and put it in a pile on the ground. I add water (if it's not raining regularly) and let it cook. I rotate the pile and make sure the moisture keeps by adding water (usually we get enough rain). It never smells. When I "stir" the pile, you can feel the heat and even see steam. It's definitely cooking down and after a month or so it looks like dirt. I know it's ready for the garden when it appears like dirt and nothing is identifiable in it. I usually keep 2 piles. One I can add kitchen scraps and stuff to and one is close to being dirt-like so I just leave that alone.

Compose should be part green matter (chicken poo) and part brown matter (pine shavings) but it also has to have some moisture. If you add green matter like banana peels, make sure you're balancing it out with brown matter like fall leaves.

I hope this helps!

 

[WingItRanch]

As for your chickens dying.. I lived in Southern AZ for the last few years before moving to TX and know Valley Fever was a killer for dogs and other animals. Not sure if chickens can get it but maybe your vet can do some testing?

 

[paintedChix]

Here is the link to Mountain Woman's vid.

She participated in threads back to 2007 re: DLM & raising chickens holistically

 

[gtaus]

I guess I’m wondering a few things. 1. Is the deep litter method even a good option for a dry low desert climate like this? 2. Are we doing something wrong? Do we need to add moisture to the bedding? It is dusty but it’s Arizona. 3. Any other methods recommended aside from deep litter?

I'll try to address your questions based on my experience raising hens in northern Minnesota. Obviously, not a desert climate like yours.

1) The Deep Litter Method requires the litter to be kept in a constant moist state for composting. It should have that magic wrung out sponge moisture level. It also works best when it has physical ground contact.

2) If your Deep Litter is dry, you need to add moisture for composting.

3) I use a Dry Deep Bedding system. For me, in winter in northern Minnesota, I want to reduce as much humidity in the coop as possible to prevent frost bite on the chickens. For the past couple of winters, I have been using shredded paper and cardboard in my coop for litter. In my experience, shredded paper and cardboard is almost dust free, especially compared to when I used wood chips, leaves, and dried grass. Having said that, chicken dander itself makes a lot of dust regardless of your coop litter. For me, paper shreds has reduced the amount of dust in my coop.

I am sorry to hear about your loss of chickens. I have only been raising laying hens for about 5 years, but I talked to a guy who has spent a lifetime raising chickens and he told me that sometimes animals just find ways to die even with all his experience. I have been raising small animals for over 50 years and have come to realize that sometimes I make mistakes and bad things happen. It's good that you are asking questions. That's how we all learn. Over the years, I have learned how to care for my small animals better, and mostly now they die because of things other than my fault.

I don't know what your level of experience is, but don't let a few setbacks discourage you from a lifetime of rewards you can have raising small animals. Loss of small animals is to be expected even with the very best of care.

I would not think using the DLM, or not, would have any real significant impact on losing birds. I would start looking at water, feed, and maybe high desert temps as primary considerations.

@gtaus has documented using only paper shreds in his coop as dry bedding, then transferring to run to compost. It's fascinating!

Thanks for the shout out. For anyone interested in finding out more about using paper shreds, check out the thread Using Shredded Paper for Coop Litter - As Good As Wood Chips?. It has my experiences with using paper shreds as well as many thoughtful posts from other members.

 

[gtaus]

As for your chickens dying.. I lived in Southern AZ for the last few years before moving to TX and know Valley Fever was a killer for dogs and other animals. Not sure if chickens can get it but maybe your vet can do some testing?

I have never faced a situation where I have lost many birds at one time. If I did, maybe I would consider some testing or a vet visit. However, our local vets don't know anything about poultry. For the cost of one vet visit, I could replace my entire backyard flock 3X over and start again. If OP decides to go the vet route, I hope they ask how much it would cost for any testing or vet advise before they get hit with a large bill.

Maybe I just have different values. I grew up in a small rural town and we did not have any local vets. So, it was never a viable option. But I also consider my small animals as something maybe more than livestock, but certainly not family pets with emotional attachments. For example, I know a young lady that spent almost $1,000 on hip surgery for her aging $25 pound puppy rescue. Personally, I would have just gotten another $25 pound puppy and put down the other dog. But I am open to the suggestion that my values might not be in line with others. When an animal becomes part of the family, then it changes things.

 

[gtaus]

I use pine shavings and only pull the bedding out twice a year. The chickens do a good job of stirring the litter inside the coop so all I do is add a little fresh pine shaving when I feel it needs it. It never smells.

Yeah, I do about the same system but using free paper shreds as litter. My coop does not smell. If I start to smell anything at all, I just dump in some more paper shreds on top of the old litter. Then I toss some chicken scratch into any area that needs to be turned over. The chickens will scratch and peck for the food and turn over the litter at the same time. The chicken poo will automagically work its way down into the litter keeping the top layers clean and fresh.

 

[RoyalChick]

Piling on here. I have a coop and covered run with dirt floor.
One area gets wet from occasional flooding but otherwise it is very dry.
I just pile more bedding on top. Haven’t cleared it out in years.
It only actually composts in the area that floods, but it breaks down everywhere else and I go retrieve a bucket or two of the dry broken down bedding to feed the roses or put in the hole when I plant a new shrub.
I use a mix of shredded paper, leaves, and pine shavings depending on what I have to hand. I use pine shavings in the nest boxes and empty them out in the floor when they start to look a bit tired or if someone decides they are going to sleep in the nest boxes for some reason.
Never had an issue with smell. If I did I would probably just rake it all out into a heap outside the covered run where it would compost down with the added wet.