Deerhen Project

[NatJ]

About what generation would I need to bring in fresh birds?

I don't think there is any hard rule. The main suggestion I've seen: if you start having a bad hatch rate when the eggs come from a later generation, or your adult birds are smaller than previous generations, try adding new blood.

Smaller birds would only be a problem if you are trying to keep up the size. If someone deliberately breeds the smallest birds they have, they could get some smaller-yet offspring without that being a worrying sign of inbreeding.

Poor hatch rate is definitely associated with inbreeding, but it is also also associated with incubator problems and various other causes. So do remember to check the other obvious causes if you get a poor hatch rate.

Cookie does have a full brother (Tim) who's Cuckoo barred I believe. Could I pair him with golden commets?

If he also has traits you want, then yes that would probably work well.

 

[E flowers]

I don't think there is any hard rule. The main suggestion I've seen: if you start having a bad hatch rate when the eggs come from a later generation, or your adult birds are smaller than previous generations, try adding new blood.

Smaller birds would only be a problem if you are trying to keep up the size. If someone deliberately breeds the smallest birds they have, they could get some smaller-yet offspring without that being a worrying sign of inbreeding.

Poor hatch rate is definitely associated with inbreeding, but it is also also associated with incubator problems and various other causes. So do remember to check the other obvious causes if you get a poor hatch rate.


If he also has traits you want, then yes that would probably work well.

Here's Tim (left pic) compared to Cookie and Marshmallow. I want more birds that look like Cookie. I checked in the calculator and Marshmallow is a pretty close example to what a male version of her would look like. That's partly why I bred them together. So far her and Marshmallows chicks are looking like them when they were born. I'm just not sure how Tim's patterning would effect either her genetics or another bird's. If that makes sense.

Also the closest color I could get to that matches her was the white pattern gold duckwing.

 

[NatJ]

Here's Tim (left pic) compared to Cookie and Marshmallow. I want more birds that look like Cookie. I checked in the calculator and Marshmallow is a pretty close example to what a male version of her would look like. That's partly why I bred them together. So far her and Marshmallows chicks are looking like them when they were born. I'm just not sure how Tim's patterning would effect either her genetics or another bird's. If that makes sense.

Tim has the white barring from his Cream Legbar mother. He will probably give that to about half of his chicks, including both males and females. If you put him with hens that have no barring (Golden Comets should be fine), you should be able to pick your next generations of breeders from the non-barred half of their offspring.

If you cross any non-barred male to Cream Legbar females, all the sons will have barring but none of the daughters will. Sons with barring will be just like Tim for breeding (give barring to half of sons and half of daughters.) Daughters with no barring will not be able to give it to any of their own chicks.

Also the closest color I could get to that matches her was the white pattern gold duckwing.

I don't know if that is exactly her coloring, or if she's got a few other genes as well. Given her parentage, it could go either way.

But she is definitely white patterned gold *something*

Since you especially like Cookie, you might try breeding her with one of her sons, after they grow up. That has a pretty good chance of getting more chicks with the same color genes she has.

one with a gold face and possibly a tad more gold on its body than cookie did when she was born.

If the sexlink theory holds true then the gold faced one will turn out female and the white will be a male.

For the one with a gold face and white on top of the head: I think that is duckwing (e+) coloring with Dominant White turning the usualy chipmunk stripes into white stripes, including the one on top of the head.

For Marshmallow and the white one that looks like him, I think they probably have Birchen (E^R), which usually makes black chicks but then Dominant White is turning all the black to white. The black chick is probably Birchen too.

I want more birds that look like Cookie. I checked in the calculator and Marshmallow is a pretty close example to what a male version of her would look like.

I agree Marshmallow looks a lot like a White Pattern Gold Duckwing in the calculator. Unfortunately, he looks just as much like a White Pattern Gold Wheaten or a White Pattern Gold Partridge (the calculator uses the same image for all three.) And he looks quite a bit like a White Pattern Gold Birchen too, which I think he is more likely to be (because his Black Copper Marans mother would be Birchen.)

Some of the male patterns look very much alike. In this case, change i+ to I (Dominant White), and then start clicking through the e-locus options. Everything with E/__ (Extended Black) will look white, and everything else will look like the White Pattern Gold Duckwing. The ones with Birchen (E^R) have a little different color placement in the wing, but otherwise they all look the same. (The reality might have a few more differences, but I don't have enough experience to be confident of which one I'm seeing in a photo of a real chicken.)

Regarding the original birds of your cross:
the Gold Duckwing Phoenix and the Cream Legbar should be e+ (Duckwing)
the Gold Comet should be E^Wh (Wheaten)
the Black Copper Marans should be E^R (Birchen)

So Sampson should be E^Wh/e+ (Gold Duckwing Phoenix x Gold Comet)
Cookie and Tim could be e+/e+ or they could be E^Wh/e+ or one each way (Sampson x Cream Legbar)
Marshmallow could be E^R/e+ or he could be E^R/E^Wh (Sampson x Black Copper Marans).

All of them have I (Dominant White), tracing back to the Gold Comet.

Sampson probably has Co (Columbian) from his Gold Comet parent.
He could have given Co to any or all of his chicks. I'm guessing Cookie does not have it, because she would have more gold and less white if she did. I'm not sure about Marshmallow and Tim.

To get more just like Cookie, I might try using a bunch of Cream Legbars and skipping the other breeds. Mate Cookie with a Cream Legbar rooster, keep some sons for breeding (each will have one barring gene and one not-barring gene.) Obviously pick the ones that show white rather than black in their coloring. Breed Sampson and Tim to Cream Legbar hens, pick daughters that show white (not black) and have no barring (half of Tim's daughters will have barring, none of Sampson's daughters will have barring.) Cross Cookie's sons with Sampson's and Tim's daughters. You should get about a 50/50 split of chicks with and without barring, but otherwise I think they will have a high percentage of traits you want. You could set up different clans with different sons from Cookie, and daughters from Sampson or Tim with different Cream Legbar hens, to keep down the level of inbreeding in the next few generations.

 

[E flowers]

Tim has the white barring from his Cream Legbar mother. He will probably give that to about half of his chicks, including both males and females. If you put him with hens that have no barring (Golden Comets should be fine), you should be able to pick your next generations of breeders from the non-barred half of their offspring.

If you cross any non-barred male to Cream Legbar females, all the sons will have barring but none of the daughters will. Sons with barring will be just like Tim for breeding (give barring to half of sons and half of daughters.) Daughters with no barring will not be able to give it to any of their own chicks.


I don't know if that is exactly her coloring, or if she's got a few other genes as well. Given her parentage, it could go either way.

But she is definitely white patterned gold *something*

Since you especially like Cookie, you might try breeding her with one of her sons, after they grow up. That has a pretty good chance of getting more chicks with the same color genes she has.


For the one with a gold face and white on top of the head: I think that is duckwing (e+) coloring with Dominant White turning the usualy chipmunk stripes into white stripes, including the one on top of the head.

For Marshmallow and the white one that looks like him, I think they probably have Birchen (E^R), which usually makes black chicks but then Dominant White is turning all the black to white. The black chick is probably Birchen too.


I agree Marshmallow looks a lot like a White Pattern Gold Duckwing in the calculator. Unfortunately, he looks just as much like a White Pattern Gold Wheaten or a White Pattern Gold Partridge (the calculator uses the same image for all three.) And he looks quite a bit like a White Pattern Gold Birchen too, which I think he is more likely to be (because his Black Copper Marans mother would be Birchen.)

Some of the male patterns look very much alike. In this case, change i+ to I (Dominant White), and then start clicking through the e-locus options. Everything with E/__ (Extended Black) will look white, and everything else will look like the White Pattern Gold Duckwing. The ones with Birchen (E^R) have a little different color placement in the wing, but otherwise they all look the same. (The reality might have a few more differences, but I don't have enough experience to be confident of which one I'm seeing in a photo of a real chicken.)

Regarding the original birds of your cross:
the Gold Duckwing Phoenix and the Cream Legbar should be e+ (Duckwing)
the Gold Comet should be E^Wh (Wheaten)
the Black Copper Marans should be E^R (Birchen)

So Sampson should be E^Wh/e+ (Gold Duckwing Phoenix x Gold Comet)
Cookie and Tim could be e+/e+ or they could be E^Wh/e+ or one each way (Sampson x Cream Legbar)
Marshmallow could be E^R/e+ or he could be E^R/E^Wh (Sampson x Black Copper Marans).

All of them have I (Dominant White), tracing back to the Gold Comet.

Sampson probably has Co (Columbian) from his Gold Comet parent.
He could have given Co to any or all of his chicks. I'm guessing Cookie does not have it, because she would have more gold and less white if she did. I'm not sure about Marshmallow and Tim.

To get more just like Cookie, I might try using a bunch of Cream Legbars and skipping the other breeds. Mate Cookie with a Cream Legbar rooster, keep some sons for breeding (each will have one barring gene and one not-barring gene.) Obviously pick the ones that show white rather than black in their coloring. Breed Sampson and Tim to Cream Legbar hens, pick daughters that show white (not black) and have no barring (half of Tim's daughters will have barring, none of Sampson's daughters will have barring.) Cross Cookie's sons with Sampson's and Tim's daughters. You should get about a 50/50 split of chicks with and without barring, but otherwise I think they will have a high percentage of traits you want. You could set up different clans with different sons from Cookie, and daughters from Sampson or Tim with different Cream Legbar hens, to keep down the level of inbreeding in the next few generations.

What do you think would happen if I bred a Golden commet male to cream legbar females?

Like say I decided several years from now to make some like Cookie.

 

[NatJ]

What do you think would happen if I bred a Golden commet male to cream legbar females?

Like say I decided several years from now to make some like Cookie.

From that pairing, all sons will have white barring and all daughters will have no barring.

Half of chicks should have Dominant White, and the other half should have black.

Half of chicks should inherit Silver from the Golden Comet, and the other half should inherit gold.

So if half of chicks are female, and half of them show Dominant White, and half of them have gold, that makes about 1 in 8 chicks that have the coloring closest to Cookie's.

All chicks should have E^Wh/e+ and Co/co+
(That's split wheaten/duckwing, and Columiban/not-Columbian)
I think that will make females will show more gold and less white than what Cookie has (for the ones with gold/white. Others will show gold/black or silver/black or silver/white that just looks white).

If you keep a son with gold & white, and breed him back to the Cream Legbar hens, I think you will get some females that will look more like Cookie: e+/e+, Dominant White, no Columbian, no barring (that's about 1 in 8 females or 1 in 16 total chicks).

If you don't care about egg color, try using a Brown Leghorn or a Welsummer instead of the Legbars. That lets you avoid the barring.

Or just look for Red Pyle chickens. I know they exist in Old English Game Bantams. If you like that appearance, crossing one of them to a Brown Leghorn or a Welsummer should give you pullets that look a lot like Cookie in coloring and cockerels that are the male version of the same. After that, always keep a male who shows white and cross him back to Brown Leghorn or Welsummer. That should get you 50% chicks showing white and 50% chicks showing black, but all chicks e+/e+ with no white barring and no Columbian. You can continue that pattern forever, buying new Brown Leghorns or Welsummers as needed. Or you can breed males to females from your own stock, and about 1/4 of chicks will have two Dominant White genes, meaning every one of their own chicks will inherit Dominant White.

 

[E flowers]

From that pairing, all sons will have white barring and all daughters will have no barring.

Half of chicks should have Dominant White, and the other half should have black.

Half of chicks should inherit Silver from the Golden Comet, and the other half should inherit gold.

So if half of chicks are female, and half of them show Dominant White, and half of them have gold, that makes about 1 in 8 chicks that have the coloring closest to Cookie's.

All chicks should have E^Wh/e+ and Co/co+
(That's split wheaten/duckwing, and Columiban/not-Columbian)
I think that will make females will show more gold and less white than what Cookie has (for the ones with gold/white. Others will show gold/black or silver/black or silver/white that just looks white).

If you keep a son with gold & white, and breed him back to the Cream Legbar hens, I think you will get some females that will look more like Cookie: e+/e+, Dominant White, no Columbian, no barring (that's about 1 in 8 females or 1 in 16 total chicks).

If you don't care about egg color, try using a Brown Leghorn or a Welsummer instead of the Legbars. That lets you avoid the barring.

Or just look for Red Pyle chickens. I know they exist in Old English Game Bantams. If you like that appearance, crossing one of them to a Brown Leghorn or a Welsummer should give you pullets that look a lot like Cookie in coloring and cockerels that are the male version of the same. After that, always keep a male who shows white and cross him back to Brown Leghorn or Welsummer. That should get you 50% chicks showing white and 50% chicks showing black, but all chicks e+/e+ with no white barring and no Columbian. You can continue that pattern forever, buying new Brown Leghorns or Welsummers as needed. Or you can breed males to females from your own stock, and about 1/4 of chicks will have two Dominant White genes, meaning every one of their own chicks will inherit Dominant White.

The red pyle bantam hens do look a lot like her so that may be the closest I could get.

 

[NatJ]

The red pyle bantam hens do look a lot like her so that may be the closest I could get.

I don't know how many (if any) standard-sized breeds come in that color. It seems to be relatively rare, which is a bit of a pity because they are quite attractive.

 

[E flowers]

I ended up having to move the last few eggs into the incubator after all. She stayed off the nest during the day and I managed to catch them before they got too cold.
One started hatching last night and finally hatched earlier today. I'm gonna move it out to her tonight and slip it under her.
Unfortunately we did lose one right after it hatched the other day. Not sure what happened. It didn't look bloody or injured in any way I could tell. From 9 eggs to 4 hatched babies.

 

[E flowers]

Are white australorps and American bresse dominant white like white leghorns or is there some differences?

For the Deerhen project.

 

[NatJ]

Are white australorps and American bresse dominant white like white leghorns or is there some differences?

For the Deerhen project.

I found a website talking about American Bresse that says they are supposed to be dominant white, but it also says some are recessive white.
https://www.ambresse.com/white-genes-in-american-bresse.html
So if that is correct, you probably could get dominant white from some American Bresse, but you might get some recessive white as well.

I can't find anything about White Australorps in the USA. I find plenty of hatcheries selling "Austra White," which is a cross of Black Australorp and White Leghorn. Of course the White Leghorn gives dominant white to that mix. I don't remember if you're in the USA or not, but I am so that's where I usually look. If you are in another country, you might have access to different breeds or varieties.